 Poster: A snowHead
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Am I the only one on here who remembers Alain Baxter kicking everyone’s back bottom on Superstars?!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020, "even pro WC downhill skiers are not at the kind of strength and fitness levels we would see in sports..."
Nonsense statement. Pro skiers have a unique blend of all the fitness components: strength, power, speed, agility, aerobic & anaerobic fitness, balance, coordination...with a suitable blend for their sport. They tend to be outstanding all round athletes, obviously not at the strength level of a powerlifter nor the VO2 max of a 5k specialist, but as per the reference to Alain Baxter (& Bode Miller on the US equivalent) amazing overall fitness.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am never going to be technically good enough to take TT / CTT / ISIA speedtest but am following this thread with interest as a wannabe L2 with a professional interest in human physiology, and a personal interest in “being fit” and a curiosity about sports science (I was one of the few who was upset at the scraping of the “common theory” module from the BASI 3 syllabus)
I have never raced. I probably never will. But having objective “off snow” standard to work towards would lead some focus to my fitness / gym work.
(Oh and I’m trying not to be despondent that my 5k best is a full 10min slower than Mr Ryding’s. Even though I’m nearly 10yr older than he is and have an extra X chromosome)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowrider wrote: |
| Also important not to under estimate the mental side on the Eurotest (and other ski racing). You can be the physically strongest but when you stand in the start gate and know the next 60 seconds or so determines the success of something you have worked toward for weeks / months / years, you have to be able to get in the correct mind set. |
Now I DO remember more from my Eurotest days in 2005. I can recall EVERY single second of that day I passed. I can remember getting into the start gate, going, when I tucked, the mistake I made, how I straightened my line for the finish and not only my finish time of 39.89 seconds but also the pass time of 41.14secs.... I was the second fastest male on the day - my training partner beat me by 0.23 of a second on the day. So I passed and can still feel the emotions of that day - so mentally I needed to be ready - haha! Interestingly I dont recall 'getting' the projected time in training for the first 7 weeks of training or so - there or nearly there but not quite and by week 8 was getting the time.... week 9 and 10 of training kept getting it and everyone was saying I was a shoe in for the day - put more pressure on me.... but the second I crossed the line and saw the time that was the end of it. I DIDNT cry but I did when I was told about a year later on the last day of my Level 4 Tech course (which was the last thing I had to do) I had passed I sobbed!!!! It was the end of a VERY long journey!
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@Steve Angus, wow, that's so vivid. I simply can't imagine being that good at anything, let alone working so hard to perfect my ability. Unfortunately I am mediocrity personified. 
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@Steve Angus, Thank you for sharing your experience.
Male pass times at Eurotests of Les Menuires, Val Thorens m, Alpe d'Huez, Serre Chevalier are 55s to a little over a minute in recent years.
I'm curious as to where you passed, in that the time was a bit shorter ? But I saw that it was in 2005 as well so maybe there is a difference due to that as well.
Thank you!
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@Steve Angus, I hope this is the emotions i'll get over the next few years!! 
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| Arno wrote: |
| Am I the only one on here who remembers Alain Baxter kicking everyone’s back bottom on Superstars?! |
Legend!
But SnowHeads Gold that a snow @boarder2020, knows better 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JulieAimeLeSki wrote: |
@Steve Angus, Thank you for sharing your experience.
Male pass times at Eurotests of Les Menuires, Val Thorens m, Alpe d'Huez, Serre Chevalier are 55s to a little over a minute in recent years.
I'm curious as to where you passed, in that the time was a bit shorter ? But I saw that it was in 2005 as well so maybe there is a difference due to that as well.
Thank you! |
An old Val Thorens friend of mine, David Mitchell, passed his Eurotest in the mid 2000’s having started skiing in his mid-twenties. Incredible achievement but I remember him telling me that several passed that day as the ouvreur made a couple of mistakes that made the qualifying time easier to achieve.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@BobinCH,
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the ouvreur made a couple of mistakes that made the qualifying time easier to achieve.
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Is the whole system (somewhat) dependent on what side of bed the ouvreur gets out of on the relevant morning?  Is there some sort of check/balance against that?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@BobinCH,
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the ouvreur made a couple of mistakes that made the qualifying time easier to achieve.
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Is the whole system (somewhat) dependent on what side of bed the ouvreur gets out of on the relevant morning? Is there some sort of check/balance against that? |
I only know what he told me but I recall that he tried several times and that time that he passed several others passed with him. On other occasions hardly anyone passed. Led me to believe the performance of the ouvreur is a massive influence
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@BobinCH,
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the ouvreur made a couple of mistakes that made the qualifying time easier to achieve.
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Is the whole system (somewhat) dependent on what side of bed the ouvreur gets out of on the relevant morning? Is there some sort of check/balance against that? |
There should be 3 openers for a CTT/ET. They do a opening and closing run. This is then normalised using their coefficient and the average of the best two times taken to get the pass: 19% for men, 25% slower for women (it is generous for women).
Openers can take a second run if they are not happy with their time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@davidof, thanks. Interesting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof, Exactly. Mostly they'll start off with 4 openers, to have some margin. When an opener dnf's they choose if they go back up or not. When closing in not that great conditions, not necessarily all 4 will ski again seeing as it's not needed.
The thing that influences - I think, if I get this correctly- is that openers coefficients sometimes do not correspond to the time they would be expected to ski relative to the other openers:
So the one with the better handicap, sometimes succeeds in doing a worse time than the others or vice versa, which influences the pass time and nr of people passing.
As a little higher, there are Eurotests where very few people pass and then there was one on a monday in Les Menuires january 2023 where +60 people passed.
Conditions influence a lot as well, but still it seems like the standard should be more 1 standard, than ''the standard on that day'' that will be different from the test yesterday or tomorrow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@JulieAimeLeSki, thanks
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
...19% for men, 25% slower for women (it is generous for women).
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I'd read that the additional % added for women, was actually less generous than if they had women openers* and a 19% allowance. Or has that % been increased?
* selected on similar criteria than the male openers are.
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| Quote: |
@boarder2020, "even pro WC downhill skiers are not at the kind of strength and fitness levels we would see in sports..."
Nonsense statement. Pro skiers have a unique blend of all the fitness components: strength, power, speed, agility, aerobic & anaerobic fitness, balance, coordination...with a suitable blend for their sport. They tend to be outstanding all round athletes
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Convenient place to cut out my quote  I've never said that skiers aren't great athletes, and would agree that they have to have a combination of the many elements you mention and that probably does make them good all around athletes. But if you judge a pro skier purely on strength or aerobic fitness you are going to be disappointed. Plenty of recreation athletes will have better numbers.
But as I've said it depends what you consider "strong" or "fit". If your bar is pretty low sure skiers are out of this world. If you are used to looking at lab data for elite athletes skiers don't compare. Which is not a knock on skiers, it's just the reality their sport isn't as heavily weighted towards strength or fitness and requires many other factors and skill.
If I test vo2 max I can have a pretty good correlation with running performance. If I test 1 rep max squat I can have a pretty good correlation with long jump distance. If I test those things in skiers I probably don't get any kind of correlation with performance. Because as pointed out there are way to many confounding variables.
For those failing eurotest it will be a minority whos limiting factor is leg strength. For most people improving technique and perfecting racing skills is going to do way more than putting a couple of kgs on their squat number.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boarder2020, speak to the experts on this, ie those who train instructors to pass the eurotest. Guess what, fitness & specifically strength/ power training is a major part of their programme. As are, of course, technical, tactical, mental skills & equipment choice.
End of story.
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@Steve Angus, thanks for that extraordinarily vivid personal picture of your journey.
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@Origen - no worries - its very clear in my mind so easy to recount it!
@JulieAimeLeSki - I passed in Germany. The course was shorter as it was early December and conditions did not allow a long course! However had been training minute long courses up on the Tignes glacier where had been doing my training that Autumn.
Yes as others have said there are openers and closers and ways to try and make it fairer but its not an exact science and sometimes lots of people pass and other days not many do! However this is partly the thing about the ET and training for it and the fitness side of things..... you gotta be fit enough to keep throwing yourself down the courses and going to the races and potentially being knocked back or races cancelled or getting a bad bib number on a rutted course and then sometimes you are in the right place at the right time and it works.
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It sounds like some sort of medieval quest beset with trolls and traps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Steve Angus, Thank you !
I do think things could be more uniform so that the passing standard is more uniform. And that sometimes the things that could make it fairer are literally avoided.
Eurotests end of april where they choose to do the 2nd run in the 1st run track that's heavily rutted to get home earlier: should not happen like that.
Where they block every participant from slipping the course because they are all obliged to slip just before the ouvreurs close: same.
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| JulieAimeLeSki wrote: |
@Steve Angus, Thank you !
I do think things could be more uniform so that the passing standard is more uniform. And that sometimes the things that could make it fairer are literally avoided.
Eurotests end of april where they choose to do the 2nd run in the 1st run track that's heavily rutted to get home earlier: should not happen like that.
Where they block every participant from slipping the course because they are all obliged to slip just before the ouvreurs close: same. |
No worries.
In my test all the local Germans had bib numbers 1-40 or whatever it was then the foreigners thereafter in alphabetical order- I was bib number 41 or whatever it was... I remember EVERYONE watching me like a hawk to see how I skied it - haha!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
- someone who started skiing later in life possibly from a reasonably unfit starting point |
Maybe this will be interesting?
Becoming a ski instructor when you don't come from the mountains. Mathilde Suard / Arc Adventures / les Arcs
... see page 1
--- https://mathildesuardski.wordpress.com/
> |
I spoke to Mathilde about her fitness level. It seems to chime with what Boarder2020 thinks
"Ah ha, good question, I was never a high level gymnast, I just did a lot of gym when I was younger but the year I passed the eurotest I did 5h of gym per week, (on apparatus) but only from September to November because in the winter I was just skiing. I never did weights or cardio work, no cycling, running or swimming because I hate it. Just skiing"
so it appears that a fit woman in her mid 20s can pass the eurotest just on skiing. Obviously that is an anecdotal and everyone has different journeys.
cbr> What's the oldest anyone's ever passed it, or its various guises over the years?
62 I'm told. An Austrian. So there may still be hope  .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
62 I'm told. An Austrian. So there may still be hope . |
Training with some of the masters guys out here, doesn't surprise me, but then most have been racing since they were kids
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| JulieAimeLeSki wrote: |
@Steve Angus, Thank you !
I do think things could be more uniform so that the passing standard is more uniform. And that sometimes the things that could make it fairer are literally avoided.
Eurotests end of april where they choose to do the 2nd run in the 1st run track that's heavily rutted to get home earlier: should not happen like that.
Where they block every participant from slipping the course because they are all obliged to slip just before the ouvreurs close: same. |
No worries.
In my test all the local Germans had bib numbers 1-40 or whatever it was then the foreigners thereafter in alphabetical order- I was bib number 41 or whatever it was... I remember EVERYONE watching me like a hawk to see how I skied it - haha! |
That story is insane and really should not be the idea. Thank you for sharing!
With regards to the actual question, after reflection and having read all of your ideas, my opinion:
you pass through your skiing level, but to be serious about skiing requires investment on a lot of levels, physical training in some degree is one of those. Once you've been injured before, you tend to not mess around anymore. Even better if you avoid that first injury by preparing physically proactively.
I personally find it hard in winter to get intense sport in besides skiing. I'll stretch, do yoga, but during the winter months I almost don't hit the gym as I'm often tired already. The feeling of being strong is however one of the components that make me ski well and feel confident. It's a balance of a lot of components to prepare for my skiing exams.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I spoke to Mathilde about her fitness level. It seems to chime with what Boarder2020 thinks
"Ah ha, good question, I was never a high level gymnast, I just did a lot of gym when I was younger but the year I passed the eurotest I did 5h of gym per week, (on apparatus) but only from September to November because in the winter I was just skiing. I never did weights or cardio work, no cycling, running or swimming because I hate it. Just skiing"
so it appears that a fit woman in her mid 20s can pass the eurotest just on skiing. Obviously that is an anecdotal and everyone has different journeys.
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Sounds about right. For a 20-something year old with a fairly active background I wouldn't expect them to need any specific gym or cardio stuff. Baseline strength is good and you can get a lot of what you need just through skiing.
I'm sure for someone at an older age whos possibly had a few less active years along the way some proper strength training and cardio is likely to be beneficial, perhaps even necessary. But even they don't need to be in a gym smashing out 2.5x BW deadlifts and 2x bodyweight squats (both of which are pretty normal standards for sports requiring a decent strength component).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
| I just did a lot of gym when I was younger but the year I passed the eurotest I did 5h of gym per week, (on apparatus) but only from September to November because in the winter I was just skiing. |
5h of gym per week in the Autumn isn't "just skiing".
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rjs, gymnastics. Yes it will help. But as they said:
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I never did weights or cardio work, no cycling, running or swimming because I hate it. Just skiing
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I'm willing to be proven wrong. But I just don't see any good evidence put forward. She passed with never lifting weights or doing cardio. Another poster passed with his strength "squatting 30 reps at BW". The strength standard required is just not that high relative to athletic populations. Again it's not a knock on skiing or a suggestion it's "easy". It's just saying you don't need the kind of strength to pass the eurotest that is necessary to be good at other sports (rugby, sprinting, throwing etc.). 5 hours of gymnastics for 3 months per year we certainly not cut it in those!
Again, leg strength is just not a limiting factor for the vast majority. The leg strength you need can mostly be built just through skiing at eurotest level. If you want to talk about Olympians sure they will need a proper strength program.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Again, leg strength is just not a limiting factor for the vast majority. The leg strength you need can mostly be built just through skiing at eurotest level. If you want to talk about Olympians sure they will need a proper strength program. |
When you ski a full length slalom or giant slalom course, are you still able to push to the finish line or do you start to feel tired before it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
When you ski a full length slalom or giant slalom course, are you still able to push to the finish line or do you start to feel tired before it?
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You are describing muscular endurance not strength. You know what probably trains you pretty well for skiing a full course? Skiing a full course numerous times per day.
So Aksel who is an olympic gold medalist which is way above the eurotest is squatting "around 140kg for 10 reps" at around 90kg (I'm guessing) body weight. Of course it's not weak, but it's far from impressive for a pro athlete. For example Kuo Hsing-Chun is a 59kg weightlifter and she squats 190kg pretty comfortably (with more depth than Aksel if we are being picky).
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note hes squatting and not leg pressing.
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No serious strength program is doing leg press over squat. Squat is a much superior exercise for athletes.
The op asked what was the MINIMUM fitness. Clearly there are some that pass eurotest with very minimal (perhaps even zero) specific resistance or cardio training. The same can not be said for other sports, where to be at that kind of level other training is necessary.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boarder2020, I'm asking about your experience.
Most people don't have the fitness to start race training.
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| Quote: |
Most people don't have the fitness to start race training.
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Most people don't have the fitness to start marathon training. It doesn't mean marathon runners are particularly strong.
Most people don't have the strength to start an olympic weightlifting program. It doesn't mean weightlifters are aerobically fit.
As I've said if you are comparing those passing the eurotest to the average sedentary overweight Brit sure they are incredible athletes. My experience is the average 1-2 week skier per year struggles to ski 1000m descent without having to stop for a break - and I don't even mean race, just ski down. But I'm assuming most looking to pass the eurotest are generally "active", and already spending many hours on snow each year so the baseline is not comparable - but maybe I am wrong?
The question was what is the minimum fitness requirement. As I keep pointing out there are people that pass eurotest with no specific strength or cardio training plan. You will not reach a similarly high level of performance in other sports - rugby, weightlifting, sprinting, jumping, throwing without these things.
I don't know why some seem to take this as such a knock on skiers/skiing. Passing the eurotest is clearly extremely impressive. It's just not a sport which (even at Olympic level) has the strength requirements of some other sports. That doesn't mean it's "easier", it's just a completely different set of skills and physical attributes required.
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An interesting thread.
As a slightly (!) older skier I spent a few weeks over a few seasons training in Saas Fee with JJC on their Eurotest programme.
I was clearly on a different pathway, but it certainly helped me become a better skier.
So I write as an observer, not a participant:
Technique, courage, commitment are key.
Fitness is key too, strength is part of that.
The people who were on a Pass trajectory worked hard, really hard, on all of those, along with ski prep too.
Just being a really good skier? In my opinion that's not enough. The JJC guys would not be stressing strength and fitness training if it wasn't a key component.
And the idea that a teenage club racer could just turn up and pass?
Probably true.
But those club racers are doing loads, absolutely loads, of off snow training.
Running, gym, loads of road biking in the summer.
This isn't casual training but club sessions with coaches every week throughout the year.
If they were not strong and fit they wouldn't be able to train and club race week in, week out.
That turn-up teenager passed because they did the work...all the work.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Steve Angus, wow, that's so vivid. I simply can't imagine being that good at anything, let alone working so hard to perfect my ability. Unfortunately I am mediocrity personified. |
It may be slightly off-topic, so apologies in advance.
Hurtle, having skied with you, your skiing is elegance personified and always wonderfully controlled.
As for mediocrity? Well, we’re not all cut out for high-performance sport….but if heart and nature, kindness and thoughtfulness were sports, mediocrity is absolutely not how one would describe you!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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