 Poster: A snowHead
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I assume there are snowheads who guide off-piste. What do you think about your jobs when avy risk is high? Do you love getting into the powder that's going to be there and trust your instincts enough to avoid trouble; or are you nervous and wishing you could stay on pistes those days? I assume the answer to this will depend on whether you were ever in or close to real slide[/url]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not a guide but I think this is a bit of a daft question - If avy risk is high enough that it can't be mitigated by choice of the appropriate terrain no guide worth the name is going to be taking clients there regardless. It's got nothing to do with being in a real slide or not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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as a punter, I am thinking back to the Avvy 1 course I did this time last year when the whole of the Chamonix valley was closed one day and the guide had to think really hard to think of somewhere to practice beacon searches, then the s41tshow at les houches as we tried to go skiing there on the following day, along with hordes of powder hungry Chamonix residents
i think a sense of humour and much patience for morons who get lost in the Les Houches car park (ie me) are vital under those circumstances
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Guiding is a qualification requiring a huge amount of knowledge and experience and a long period of training. I ski a lot off piste but know that my knowledge is tiny compared to theirs. I am talking, of course, about proper UIAGM High Mountain Guides, not mates who know somewhere, or even ski school instructors. Only qualified guides are allowed to guide on glaciers, by the way. I am constantly amazed at the precision of some of the judgements they make, where slopes that seem identical to me do not to them. On the other hand, after many hundreds of days skiing with guides I have been in one avalanche with a guide.
There are a few guides who contribute to this forum (though many more ski teachers who do teach [and so guide] off piste), though I have not skied with any of them, as far as I know. Perhaps one will be along soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, +1
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Do you love getting into the powder that's going to be there and trust your instincts enough to avoid trouble; or are you nervous and wishing you could stay on pistes those days?
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If they're nervous, it'd likely be 'cos it's dangerous, hence they won't be taking clients there. If they can't find safe terrain they have no obligation to take people out anyway - they just won't go.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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There are old guides, and there are bold guides. But there are no old, bold guides. 
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Crikey - this is a really serious subject. I'll try and be brief. Guiding on high risk days is often very complex. Different guides do it different ways. Myself and others I work with will often drive to a different area for a day if we think the skiing will be safer there. We'll choose lower angled slopes, on parts of the mountain where we deem the risk of avalanche to be lower. We'll study maps for hours to try and find something that will be a fun day out (even if not the most amazing skiing). In short, we'll do everything we can to mitigate the risk. If I don't think I can do that, I won't go off-piste.
Trusting your instincts is not sufficient. People hiring a professional Mountain Guide should get a professional service. That means that the Guide has taken all reasonable steps to keep them safe, not ignored the risks to give them the deepest snow.
Hope you all have a safe season.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| ... If they can't find safe terrain they have no obligation to take people out anyway - they just won't go. |
Or sometimes they do go, but get it wrong. Just because you're with a guide doesn't make it safe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
clarky999 wrote:
... If they can't find safe terrain they have no obligation to take people out anyway - they just won't go.
Or sometimes they do go, but get it wrong. Just because you're with a guide doesn't make it safe.
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If they don't go, they don't get paid. People paying good money expect a good day out. This is a big heuristic trap for guides/instructors/mountain-leaders - the pressure to give people a good day in bad conditions.
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In just about every other walk of life besides skiing people allow themselves be compromised by money. Is skiing different? Every single off-piste ski-school / guiding service I have come across say they ski every day lifts are open even if risk is 4 (but of course at clients own risk). Thus I am sure guides employed wouldn't stay in the job long if they told their bosses and clients they weren't going off-piste on some of those powder days. The assumption they will have to find somewhere to go is the basis of my question. I am not sure it is quite a daft question as fatbob, says andclarky999, agrees with
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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patricksh,
If you were a guide what would you do?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, I wouldn't be a guide in the first place! But I guess if I had no choice and this was my livelihood then I would bring clients out somewhere as safe as I could find, but I would be tense as hell the whole day
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Last time I was guided off piste on a very high risk day, of course we didn't ski the steep stuff we had been skiing, but our guide got us skiing fresh tracks all day, especially off one ridge. However there were 2 bits of the ridge he avoided. He saw a group approaching one of the places and said to us "We'd better watch them, we may have to rescue them." They set off an avalanche but just managed to avoid being caught by it.
The (American) girl who had led them was in tears and saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry". She had been very lucky.
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You know it makes sense.
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| patricksh wrote: |
| DB, I wouldn't be a guide in the first place! But I guess if I had no choice and this was my livelihood then I would bring clients out somewhere as safe as I could find, but I would be tense as hell the whole day |
Why wouldn't you be a guide in the first place?
My experience is that guides make an educated decision, deliver what they can for their clients and are always aware and concerned but don't generally wet themselves as someone less educated about offpiste skiing would do. Guides lead, put themselves at risk and try to give their customs the biggest smile on their faces for the least risk. No risk no fun, it isn't black and white. A slope doesn't tell you it's going to go and sometimes they or their customers get caught out.
Escalators are dangerous too ....
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21627333/pioneering-ski-guide-dies-freak-alaska-accident
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, nice of you to suggest I could be a guide, I am not a good enough skier, but maybe I would be a good guide (in some people's views) as I like to be safe and minimize risks, but not averse to some adventure. Of course every time you fly is a risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't understand this concern about guiding on high-risk days. Statistically most avalanche deaths occur on lower-risk days. There are usually places to go to play on high-risk days, and guides will know them. It does look like guides are doing their job rather successfully with relatively low number of avalanche deaths compared to the number of guided tours happening every season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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never summer, in other words, more get caught on low-risk days not only because there are more skiing off-piste on these days, but also they are more likely to be on risky slopes. Definitely interesting observation, which will make you feel safer in hands of good guide
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| patricksh wrote: |
| never summer, in other words, more get caught on low-risk days |
Hate to be pedantic, but avy 3 is not low risk. It's lower than 4 or 5 (as never summer said), but it's not low.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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patricksh,
You do realize being a Mountain Guide isn't just about skiing.
Here are the pre-requirements
http://www.bmg.org.uk/index.php/eng/Guide-Training/Pre-requirements
Offpiste Guides are not just people who can ski a bit offpiste. They generally live to be in the Mountains and the way they achieve that is by leading groups. Unlike many people in other professions, money isn't their main driver but they are happy to take a tip, however large  (pays for Equipment etc)
Part of being a good guide is avoiding group panic. Whatever the situation the Guide needs to hold his head and direct the group. On high risk days Guides I've been with have selected safer pitches or conducted transceiver / avy training (high avy risk with fog on a Silvretta hut to hut tour). I have been involved in a slide and I also almost perished on the Großglocker around 11 years ago. I'm certain neither would have happened if a Guide had been with us.
I'd imagine on days of higher risk (generally becuase of high snowfall) many guides wish they didn't have a group so they could shred the powder themselves at their own risk instead of playing it safe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Agree. It's a relative term. You are only 100% safe on zero risk days and those don't usually exist with snow on.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Guides have to pay huge insurance premiums, especially public liability (even more because of the summer climbing than the winter off piste).
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Hi,
I am a full time guide with MountainTracks.
Even on high risk days, plenty of excellent and reasonably safe off-piste skiing can be found. Its certainly not in our interests to take strong risks with ourselves or our guests. We have years of training and experience,'and thats what guests pay for, however the environment has inherent risks and even the experts are sometimes caught out. Using a guide means you can experience the best off piste with a seasoned professional, but people who want 100% guarantees are best staying on marked runs.
The same rules apply to any high risk activity. Its rare to come across someone who doesn't understand the situation.
Matt Dickinson
www.mountaintracks.co.uk
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matdickinson, welcome to snowheads, it's good to have another authoritative voice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There is also an element of what is an acceptable risk.
With paying clients, I err massively on the side of caution, there is never any doubt in my mind.
With ski buddies who are equally experienced, we may push the boundaries more.
I'm not syaing this is right, merely how it is.
And I am not saying I always get it right when I have no doubt.
But having people you are responsible for behind you puts a whole new perspective on things ....
If it is a 4, you need detailed local knowledge ...
(I love it when they close the links coz of av risk, get to go play in all my little stashes)
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