 Poster: A snowHead
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@BobinCH, No. But I consider how I'll get my a**e down without a ski every time I plan to go down a steep piste. And I get it checked every trip, not annually.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think a contribution from an experienced pisteur like Idris is always useful, and carries much more weight than some of just stating that skiing a "closed" piste is always unwise.
Questions about the skill level of the group, or the cause of the accident, are not really central to that issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Charliegolf, quality nitpicking well done
The point is that many of these incidents are a combination of small mistakes and pieces of of bad luck and the analysis of “piste closed = idiot” seems rather inhumane and also doesn’t really reflect how these incidents happen
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| Arno wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
What annoys me is the implication by some posters that if someone comes to grief skiing a piste clearly marked "Closed" it is somehow somebody else's fault, perhaps because access to the piste was not physically blocked. I've not stood at the top of the Swiss Wall for many years now, but I do remember looking down there and deciding quite quickly to go down on the chair. There is absolutely no need to ski it to "get anywhere". |
On the other hand I’ve found some of the judgements of the deceased on here pretty distasteful. Yes, skiing a closed slope is taking a risk and you shouldn’t do it but we don’t know anything about the group’s decision making, their skill level or what caused the fall. The scariest incident I’ve been involved in had multiple contributing factors (with the benefit of hindsight) but the most proximate cause was an equipment malfunction and there’s only so much you can do about that |
Well some have already covered this, or at least implied that there almost certainly was a lack of responsibility involved:
A few have confirmed the piste was closed, so the skill level of the skiers or the cause of the fall become irrelevant. They don't just close it for certain abilities and under - nobody cares if you're Nicolai Schirmer, it's closed
If it was an equipment fail, you can take certain steps to mitigate against it ending your life by not skiing a closed piste - especially one that was essentially a field of concrete moguls.
What is clear is that a decision was made by one of them (at least), and there are no excuses for that.
Might sound harsh, but it's not disrespectful. What is disrespectful is knowingly putting yourself (and others) in that position. Traumatised bystanders, horrible for the pisteurs, all completely unnecessary.
Edit: I see other responses have been more tactful...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Arno, Not the intention, i assure you. And disrespect to the deceased was neither given nor implied.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 12-02-24 15:04; edited 1 time in total
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| I'm really not sure what one would be trying to achieve, teaching wise. Even for the best of skiers it's pretty much survival skiing and you're never going to be able to get anything like a rhythm going, so for learning proper mogul skiing it would be a complete waste of time |
100% agree and a view I've been trying to express from the outset! 
Closed or open - what is the 'point' of this kind of pisted run . . .?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 12-02-24 15:08; edited 1 time in total
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I guess some people on here never have a feeling of there go I but for the grace of god
And no, I don’t make a habit of skiing closed pistes but this sort of thing could happen on any steep icey slope
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
I guess some people on here never have a feeling of there go I but for the grace of god
And no, I don’t make a habit of skiing closed pistes but this sort of thing could happen on any steep icey slope |
The quote at the end comes to mind
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@Kramer, well said.
I'd like to think I've never put my life in danger. But me being here is no proof.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
I guess some people on here never have a feeling of there go I but for the grace of god
And no, I don’t make a habit of skiing closed pistes but this sort of thing could happen on any steep icey slope |
Indeed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Kramer, With you on this and am totally guilty as charged; as a 20 something I regularly skied directly under the lifts at multiple resorts in steep / soft stuff / moguls purely to gain attention and whistles from those travelling above me . . .alas no longer as I've now lived a few years and want to keep on this trajectory!
But this is a well marked, pisted, accessible black run with a 'proud' marketed reputation for steepness / potential danger; on this basis and when open its surely an educated or controlled risk assumption rather than a unsually overt one?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 12-02-24 15:17; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Kramer wrote: |
I
I've made bad errors of judgement in the past. As people who've been on some EoSBs can attest to. Fortunately we all survived. This chap unfortunately wasn't so lucky. RIP.  |
Completely agree.
(Not that you've made errors of judgement in the past, I have no idea, but I certainly have)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think Chris Bonnington was asked about the biggest mistake he'd ever made.
He told a story about leading an exhibition, with quite a bit of money riding on it. At final basecamp on the final window of the season, the weather had cleared a bit, but was still questionable.
He had to make the call about whether to go or abandon.
He chose to go.
The weather got a bit worse, but they all summited (or whatever the goal was) and got back down safely.
When asked why that was the biggest mistake when nothing bad had happened, he answered that it was because, in retrospect, he got lucky. The weather could have really turned, and if it had, he felt it was likely that he would have lost the whole party, himself included.
When he reviewed things objectively he felt that given the circumstances he should have abandoned.
Just because something had a happy outcome doesn't mean that it was a good decision that got us there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Belch, I've skied it quite a few times with varying degrees of aptitude.
When I was skiing a lot, I skied the steep bit carrying my friends skis down to him having collected them from various moguls on the very long way down to him.  That was on my second lap because I'd got to the bottom and seen that he was struggling to get back up to them and gone around again.
But that was when I was skiing a lot, really fit, and the snow was in good condition.
I've skied it since then. It was ok, I was still safe, but I wouldn't repeat the stunt with the skis over my shoulder again.
The issue with it has always been that if you fall, you slide a long way. If it's soft you don't pick up so much speed or bang your head so much. If it's rock hard then yeah it'll have bad consequences.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 12-02-24 17:38; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Kramer, Nice summary . . . but I'd argue chasing the dollar can create a false / skewed perspective in decision making altogether; have learnt this in business with previous partners the hard way!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| BoninCH wrote: |
| Do you exhaustively test your gear each time you use it? |
In high consequence terrain that would seem like a good idea, yes. But I'd also not have any single point of failure.
Even so, I'm unclear that self arrest is reasonably possible in big concrete bumps, so I don't think the risk is manageable.
In BC at least the patrol doesn't close runs for a lark, and it seems that's true here also. "fighting natural selection" is their job, and they did it here.
| Arno wrote: |
| The point is ...the analysis of “piste closed = idiot” seems rather inhumane and also doesn’t really reflect how these incidents happen |
Incidents usually are combinations as you suggest, but in high consequence terrain, you only need one single thing to go wrong, not a combination.
Hence they closed the piste.
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The argument about choosing to ski a closed piste is surely completely different from the argument about skiing the same piste when it's open or putting to sea when bad weather is forecast . There aren't shades of grey, really, or judgements to be made.
Perhaps people don't realise that apart from any other consideration it could invalidate their insurance?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Belch, from experience, the problem with bad decisions is that they don't seem like bad decisions at the time.
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| Belch wrote: |
But this is a well marked, pisted, accessible black run with a 'proud' marketed reputation for steepness / potential danger; on this basis and when open its surely an educated or controlled risk assumption rather than a unsually overt one? |
No, whether (re my other posts) it's referred to as a black run or an itinéraire it is certainly not pisted.
Like most people I have been known to ski closed runs (but never when wearing any sort of uniform) - often you know that it's perfectly skiable with just a bit of walking where there is no snow left, for example. With a run like Chavanettes I would, without any other evidence, take the fact of it being closed to mean that it might represent an elevated risk, and in other places a closed itinéraire may not even be controlled, so if you have an accident you may not be found. On the other hand I would certainly not take it being open as a sign that it was safe to ski for an given person, myself included, so I'm not sure the risk assessment process would necessarily be much different.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 12-02-24 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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| phil_w wrote: |
| I'm unclear that self arrest is reasonably possible in big concrete bumps, |
Especially if you've knocked yourself out going off the first one.
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@Chaletbeauroc, exactly - eg I’ve skied the long blue down into Morgins from the Col du PdS when it’s been closed as I know the issue will be some bare bits and the risk is to my skis. I’d never go on Swiss Wall when it’s closed as that’s pretty much always because it’s dangerously icy - but I have the luxury of skiing 30-40 days a year and knowing it’ll be there next time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Frosty the Snowman, before my time, sadly. I should like to have witnessed the deeds of derring-do (but not participated, I've always been a wuss)..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Belch wrote: |
| @Chaletbeauroc, Out of interest would you take any group that you instruct down such a run (even if they were all level 8-10 on the inside out scale) . . .? |
One of my sons instructors often takes him to train on the Swiss Wall, if they think the conditions will be good and their will be ok moguls. They'll normally lap it for a couple of hours, stopping each lap under the chair for a bit of jumping practice. (you can get good pics with the Dents du Midi in the background.)
His other instructor used to take him down it when he was younger and they would practice fast GS turns down it, as the instructor felt it was the best way to learn absorption/extension for GS racing.
But neither my son or any of his instructors would go down it if it was closed, because they know that would mean it was icy and would therefore be unpleasant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kramer wrote: |
I think Chris Bonnington was asked about the biggest mistake he'd ever made.
He told a story about leading an exhibition, with quite a bit of money riding on it. At final basecamp on the final window of the season, the weather had cleared a bit, but was still questionable.
He had to make the call about whether to go or abandon.
He chose to go.
The weather got a bit worse, but they all summited (or whatever the goal was) and got back down safely.
When asked why that was the biggest mistake when nothing bad had happened, he answered that it was because, in retrospect, he got lucky. The weather could have really turned, and if it had, he felt it was likely that he would have lost the whole party, himself included.
When he reviewed things objectively he felt that given the circumstances he should have abandoned.
Just because something had a happy outcome doesn't mean that it was a good decision that got us there. |
For anyone interested in this theory, Annie Duke has written an amazing book on it. It's very much business focused but you can apply it to life as well.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thinking-Bets-Making-Smarter-Decisions/dp/0735216355?tag=amz07b-21
The essence is how you decide where to place your bet. What info don't you know, what are the uncontrollables etc etc etc? She uses the reverse of the Chris Bonnington example with a Superbowl play where, I think, Seattle were beaten on the last play and everyone criticised the call as "the worst play in Superbowl history".......in reality, the call was absolutely fine and the right one but we're conditioned to look at the result of the decision rather than the decision itself.
Bonnington's was a terrible decision with a great result. The Superbowl play was a great decision with a terrible result.
In terms of this case, I've never seen the Swiss Wall (apart from on YouTube etc) so I've no real input to make except to say that it was clearly a terrible result. Yeah, closed piste suggests it's a bad decision as well but none of us know the details of what happened. He may have had a heart attack at the top for all we all know, then bounced down......
I'd not have gone down that run but I think that of most black runs I see. They just don't look like fun to me so I don't do them. For some people, those kinds of runs in difficult conditions is what gets them out of bed.
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I know that some people get a real kick (adrenalin or whatever) our of choosing to do scary stuff. We all take risks every time we step out of our front door (or, indeed, stay in, given how many accidents happen in the home). But to me, just enjoying "risk taking" for it's own sake, is weird. If a group I was skiing with decided to ski down a last home run, likely to be busy and with poor snow, I'd probably opt to go down in the gondola and meet them in the bar at the bottom (indeed, I have done that several times). But clearly some people would feel terrible if they did that, and would sit in the bar regretting the decision, and feel foolish when their mates trooped in, flushed with triumph. I'd just be enjoying my drink and glad to see they all got down safely.
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You know it makes sense.
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| paulhinch wrote: |
| ... Yeah, closed piste suggests it's a bad decision as well but none of us know the details of what happened. He may have had a heart attack at the top for all we all know, then bounced down...... |
This. I happened to know the deceased, and the 'simplistic' decision to ski a closed (famously dangerous) run is out of character. We will probably never know what discussions or decisions happened on the lip that day, but it is a fortunate mercy that his daughter didn't suffer the same fate.
The issues around risk perception and luck are very relevant here, which has prompted some good debate; as a group I would only ask that we remember these comments are in the public domain, and could possibly be seen by people close to him. To date I feel this has been the case, so thank you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@EarthWindandWater, thank you. I'm relieved you feel that the discussion hasn't been disrespectful. It's a terrible tragedy, anyway. My condolences to his family and friends, including you if you counted him as your friend.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Origen,
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If a group I was skiing with decided to ski down a last home run, likely to be busy and with poor snow, I'd probably opt to go down in the gondola and meet them in the bar at the bottom (indeed, I have done that several times). But clearly some people would feel terrible if they did that, and would sit in the bar regretting the decision, and feel foolish when their mates trooped in, flushed with triumph.
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I'm the same, except that I do have feelings of regret for being a wuss. I was lucky in Baqueira last week that I was skiing with an exceptionally supportive group and instructor, who never made me feel bad when I made that sort of decision.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Origen wrote: |
| I know that some people get a real kick (adrenalin or whatever) our of choosing to do scary stuff. We all take risks every time we step out of our front door (or, indeed, stay in, given how many accidents happen in the home). But to me, just enjoying "risk taking" for it's own sake, is weird. |
"Fear management" is a big issue in mountain biking. Mainly because it's a significantly more dangerous sport. Some of the people I mountain bike with seem to be able to switch their fear off. Interestingly they tend to progress faster, right up until the point that they run out of talent, at which point they also have a habit of injuring themselves, often significantly.
I often think that for a lot of them it's ignorance, they're often young, and they've got no idea about how life changing some of these injuries can be. Indeed Gee Atherton, one of the biggest names in the sport seems to be on a mission to cripple or kill himself on a mountain bike. Shamefully IMO there's loads of people that seem to be encouraging him to do so.
However having said that, the feeling of having conquered something that scares the hell out of me is a massive rush. Unbelievable. Nothing I've ever skied has come close and I've skied some reasonably gnarly stuff. Sometimes I've been so high on adrenaline that I've not been able to talk.
Often the thing that looked scary turns out to be quite easy. Sometimes it's terrifying all the way down.
| Quote: |
| If a group I was skiing with decided to ski down a last home run, likely to be busy and with poor snow, I'd probably opt to go down in the gondola and meet them in the bar at the bottom (indeed, I have done that several times). But clearly some people would feel terrible if they did that, and would sit in the bar regretting the decision, and feel foolish when their mates trooped in, flushed with triumph. I'd just be enjoying my drink and glad to see they all got down safely. |
There's a balance. I'm careful when I ski or mountain bike not to shame anyone for getting off and walking/downlifting. But I'm ashamed to say that I've not always been like that when I was younger. Some people I know are still like that. For some reason they like to make other people feel that they're missing out.
These days the rules I have are not to push myself if I'm not feeling it, to get myself in the zone by warming up before hand, and to give myself two run ins to send it. If I've not done it on the second one then I'm not doing it that go.
Also if I'm having a good day, never to go and do "one last run". If you're at the bottom or near a lift station thinking that, then it's time to call it.
There is a difference between managing risk and overcoming it versus exposing yourself to it just for the hell of it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I'm the same, except that I do have feelings of regret for being a wuss. |
If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it, and trying to make yourself do it is likely to have a worse outcome as you'll be tense and not performing at the best of your ability.
I find a good test is "can I see myself doing this'? If the answer is anything other than a "hell yes" then it's a "hell no". The mountain will still be there tomorrow or next year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Kramer,
| Quote: |
There is a difference between managing risk and overcoming it versus exposing yourself to it just for the hell of it.
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Very well put. (I know that it does me good to be encouraged to step out of my comfort zone.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Kramer, I think a lot of sports have people who go further, i.e they have incredible progression, injure themselves seriously but then continue. Marc Marquez in MotoGP is an example, superb talent but keeps hopping off and hurting himself, only to come back and repeat.
I watched Full Circle on Netflix the other week. It's about Trevor Kennison who broke his back in a snowboard incident. He subsequently took up sit-skiing and started doing some crazy stuff, including sending it at Corbet's which went viral. He's undoubtedly talented, but seeing the forces he's putting through is spine made me wince. I couldn't help but wonder if he'll make old bones.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| I'm the same, except that I do have feelings of regret for being a wuss. |
If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it, and trying to make yourself do it is likely to have a worse outcome as you'll be tense and not performing at the best of your ability.
I find a good test is "can I see myself doing this'? If the answer is anything other than a "hell yes" then it's a "hell no". The mountain will still be there tomorrow or next year. |
This, many times. Can be very difficult to recognise that moment, especially when you're in a group. But risk assessment and management is often easy sat behind a keyboard or when it's someone else involved, noticing the nuance when you're in the moment is not always so clear cut.
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| Quote: |
the feeling of having conquered something that scares the hell out of me is a massive rush. Unbelievable. Nothing I've ever skied has come close and I've skied some reasonably gnarly stuff. Sometimes I've been so high on adrenaline that I've not been able to talk.
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Interesting. I've never had that feeling and am not sure I'd like it if I did! For me, a key feature of growing old is getting the risk-taking right. What is the right balance between taking unwise risks and just giving up and mouldering away in an armchair? Or going on cruises....the ultimate relinquishing of agency. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@Origen,
| Quote: |
If a group I was skiing with decided to ski down a last home run, likely to be busy and with poor snow, I'd probably opt to go down in the gondola and meet them in the bar at the bottom (indeed, I have done that several times). But clearly some people would feel terrible if they did that, and would sit in the bar regretting the decision, and feel foolish when their mates trooped in, flushed with triumph.
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I'm the same, except that I do have feelings of regret for being a wuss. I was lucky in Baqueira last week that I was skiing with an exceptionally supportive group and instructor, who never made me feel bad when I made that sort of decision. |
No-one should ever need to feel bad just because they've opted out of something. We all have our own thresholds for what we do or do not feel comfortable doing. If others regard someone as a wuss, and especially if they make that clear, they're the ones with the problem. I've been down the Swiss Wall a few times around 20-25 years ago (also Le Tunnel at Alpe D) but would never claim to have 'skied' it. If someone suggested either of those now, I would not hesitate in saying no (probably the wisdom of age!).
For a number of years we took groups of children to Outward Bound centres. They talk a lot about moving out of your comfort zone and encourage participants to give things a try. However, they don't pressurise in any way, which is how it should be.
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