 Poster: A snowHead
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Rob, you shouldn't be teaching anybody anything, with your attitude. I was met with insults from the first post, and I turned the other cheek to everybody's first insult. None of you people actually read the threads, you just looked for things you could attack. I have more publications than I can count, and won two first-prizes. On the one I won Best of Year in Creative Non-Fiction, the editors said that my writing was crystal clear. Anybody here who thought otherwise was not trying to understand, or just stupid, or both. That being said, I am happy to repost my original-post on any other discussion group where you think it might be inappropriate. Just post some links.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@GinaMae, great trolling.
You can have oneglove's mantle - he's gone right of the boil anyway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Time to stop engaging with this nonsense.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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 the means streets of Detroit, where this is considered an insult
| rob@rar wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| Thanks for this - great article, and helps me understand that I'm probably "hip dumping" in my skiing. Something to work on! |
A very, very common problem, particularly when skiers try really hard to get really big angles, really early in the turn. It’s the opposite of progressively building and influencing the turn, and typically leads to less edge angle later in the turn compared to starting smoothly and building the edge angle until you start to release the turn. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Carv could be the perfect solution
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Gämsbock wrote: |
| Has Masque been having fun with ChatGPT? |
Ding-ding-ding!!! 
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You know full well that the non-insult post was not addressing me. Your first post to me was pretty civil, but it went downhill from there:
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @GinaMae, to me it sounds like you've got far too much analysis and things going through your head at all times, but to each their own. |
I turned a cheek to that one. Analysis and things going on in one's head is what smart people do, what people with graduate-degrees do, what writers do. Follow the leader is a game for children and people with so much money to throw away on lessons, they don't even keep track.
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
I'm not completely sure why you've even started the thread, other than to pat yourself on the back for being awesome.
I disagree with people suggesting lessons though, you're clearly not open to instruction from others.
Perhaps it's the way she was being told. If it's anything like your posts then I can see how it would be a tiring day at work for the poor woman.
I'm guessing has recently learnt the words centripetal and proprioception, so needs to use them as much as possible.
Kept me entertained on a lazy Sunday where I couldn't be bothered to move. Good work by the creator, AI or otherwise. |
And nothing proves better that you were not actually reading than your obsession with the South Park reference. I didn't say anything about Kyle or Cartman, so it doesn't matter what grade they are in. I said in South Park among third-graders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| Rob, you shouldn't be teaching anybody anything, with your attitude. I was met with insults from the first post, and I turned the other cheek to everybody's first insult. None of you people actually read the threads, you just looked for things you could attack. I have more publications than I can count, and won two first-prizes. On the one I won Best of Year in Creative Non-Fiction, the editors said that my writing was crystal clear. Anybody here who thought otherwise was not trying to understand, or just stupid, or both. That being said, I am happy to repost my original-post on any other discussion group where you think it might be inappropriate. Just post some links. |
Comedy gold, especially the bit about Rob having a bad attitude. ......chippy Welsh ginnog 
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| GinaMae wrote: |
You know full well that the non-insult post was not addressing me. Your first post to me was pretty civil, but it went downhill from there:
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @GinaMae, to me it sounds like you've got far too much analysis and things going through your head at all times, but to each their own. |
I turned a cheek to that one. Analysis and things going on in one's head is what smart people do, what people with graduate-degrees do, what writers do. Follow the leader is a game for children and people with so much money to throw away on lessons, they don't even keep track. |
Aaah, good gag, "DOWNHILL", like in skiing!
Less thinky, more ski-y 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@GinaMae, above, @motyl, has provided some useful links. The atmosphere on https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/ is totally different to here, and I think you'll get much more appropriate guidance on that forum.
As a recipient of Rob's non-insult, I'm feeling a bit left out. Why shouldn't I get insulted more?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Time to stop engaging with this nonsense. |
The time to stop engaging was 10:43 (server time, which I think is UTC+1) on Friday. I for one should have realized at the time & saved myself the trouble.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
During the first 58 episodes, the children were in the third grade. During the fourth season, they entered the fourth grade, where they have remained ever since.
Miracle of miracles, two people can disagree, and both be right. |
Ah incomplete research. In the post Covid episodes they were adults.
Anyway, glad to catch up with this thread. It appears @ Peter Stevens has had a successful regeneration into a female persona.
Very high opinion of him/herself - check
Lots of boasting about some other largely irrelevant field - check
Absolutely no clarity about desired objective outcome in OP - check
Crackpot ideas - check
Tone deafness to any suggestions - check
Complaints about bullying - check
It's a shame about the video because if the OP was genuine I'd be genuinely fascinated to see this "new" centripetal skiing technique. Proprioception- nah, just not feeling it.
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You know it makes sense.
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As I have said before, the skater's turn is an easy maneuver that you can simply try for yourself. Not feeling proprioception is a good pun though. As I have also said, everyone has different levels of ability to use proprioception, as well as different levels of proprioceptive-awareness. Proprioception is specific to one's body, but proprioceptive-awareness relates to one's body in relation to moving or stationary objects around it. To illustrate with an example, proprioception is awareness of where your nose is, proprioceptive-awareness is awareness of how far your nose is up Rob's butt.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One can go years without seeing posts containing words starting with propriocept......, and then one with 7 comes along.
I'm am currently thanking any god that may exist that I wasn't that poor instructor mentioned in the first post
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK on the P word. From a purely lived experience perspective I would suggest that people are on a distribution regarding their internal P and external P. Almost all high level athletes will score highly on both counts, it's the ability of a fielder to hit the WK's gloves from a running throw or a hockey goalie to react to a drilled puck or a QB's ability to thread a pass though coverage while scrambling.
In skiing terms I guess I'd most liken it to whether you feel the skis as a extension of your body and thus are able to know precisely which side of that pine cone you will turn and with what style of turn/ speed/ finesse.
Skiing and snowboarding really aren't that hard compared to something like surfing ( ground moves/ aren't fixed to your implement) but watching any slope from a chairlift tells you many many people aren't getting it "intuitively".
Most common problems I see are breaking at the waist hence bent double and weight too much on the tail(s). Legs too straight contribute to this problem as does over rigidity. Shoulder flailing is a lesser problem but one which people who try to correct one of the previous flaws intuitively often seem to adopt. These observations hold across skiing and boarding.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Almost all high level athletes will score highly on both counts, it's the ability of a fielder to hit the WK's gloves from a running throw or a hockey goalie to react to a drilled puck or a QB's ability to thread a pass though coverage while scrambling. |
Or Pigeondave's ability to grab a falling meat pie before it hits the ground
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Almost all high level athletes will score highly on both counts, it's the ability of a fielder to hit the WK's gloves from a running throw or a hockey goalie to react to a drilled puck or a QB's ability to thread a pass though coverage while scrambling. |
Or Pigeondave's ability to grab a falling meat pie before it hits the ground |
Any food in general to be fair.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
To illustrate with an example, proprioception is awareness of where your nose is, proprioceptive-awareness is awareness of how far your nose is up Rob's butt.
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I'm sorry that rob@rar is the butt of this joke (see what I did there) but, that aside, it's really quite funny.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pigeondave wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Almost all high level athletes will score highly on both counts, it's the ability of a fielder to hit the WK's gloves from a running throw or a hockey goalie to react to a drilled puck or a QB's ability to thread a pass though coverage while scrambling. |
Or Pigeondave's ability to grab a falling meat pie before it hits the ground |
Any food in general to be fair. |
To be fair I have seen his coordination up close when it comes to racing spoons vs leftover tartiflette.
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| Quote: |
I'm sorry that rob@rar is the butt of this joke (see what I did there) but, that aside, it's really quite funny.
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Yes it is.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm sorry that rob@rar is the butt of this joke (see what I did there) but, that aside, it's really quite funny.
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Yes it is. |
Made me chuckle. While he’s up there perhaps a quick prostate check, you know, between friends.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| No, Rob, occasionally I use centripetal force differently to make a fast turn. Everybody agrees that centrifugal force wants to keep you going straight and make you fall instead of turn. Everybody agrees that centripetal-force must be used to counter-balance centrifugal-force to make the turn. Modern instruction says that centripetal-force occurs when the ski-bends, and the skier tilts or topples. I said, and I know, that centripetal-force is also conservation of rotational-momentum, and that when the radius of a turn decreases, the speed of the spin increases squared. |
Sorry, been trying to avoid commenting but had to come in here.
There is no such thing as Centrifugal Force; there is only Centripetal Acceleration. The perception of Centrifugal Force is caused by angular acceleration or, to put it more simply and into skiing terms, by going around a bend. You can’t use centripetal acceleration to make a turn … it is the product of the turn. Centrifugal Force (which doesn’t actually exist as a force) doesn’t want to keep you going straight … that’s conservation of momentum. You need to cause a variation in speed or angle to create acceleration (either longitudinal or angular).
Angular momentum is also conserved and follows the law L = R x P. Therefore, if you halve the radius you double the rotational rate, it is NOT squared.
All of this is basic Newtonian Physics … so let’s be accurate about it.
You create Centripetal Acceleration by making a turn … and, due to conservation of momentum, that requires a force and the only place that force comes from is the interaction of the skis with the snow.
So, let’s stop talking pseudo-science please.
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@Blackblade, its been 3 months and she has flounceo off. Hopefully that's an end to it
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
| GinaMae wrote: |
| No, Rob, occasionally I use centripetal force differently to make a fast turn. Everybody agrees that centrifugal force wants to keep you going straight and make you fall instead of turn. Everybody agrees that centripetal-force must be used to counter-balance centrifugal-force to make the turn. Modern instruction says that centripetal-force occurs when the ski-bends, and the skier tilts or topples. I said, and I know, that centripetal-force is also conservation of rotational-momentum, and that when the radius of a turn decreases, the speed of the spin increases squared. |
Sorry, been trying to avoid commenting but had to come in here.
There is no such thing as Centrifugal Force; |
......
Well to be a bit more precise there is no such thing as Centrifugal Force in an Inertial Frame of Reference. In a Non-Inertial Frame of Reference ( e.g that of the skier who is going on a curved path) the Centrifugal Force is perfectly real, is felt and can be measured.
| Blackblade wrote: |
there is only Centripetal Acceleration. The perception of Centrifugal Force is caused by angular acceleration or, to put it more simply and into skiing terms, by going around a bend. You can’t use centripetal acceleration to make a turn … it is the product of the turn. Centrifugal Force (which doesn’t actually exist as a force) doesn’t want to keep you going straight … that’s conservation of momentum. You need to cause a variation in speed or angle to create acceleration (either longitudinal or angular).
Angular momentum is also conserved and follows the law L = R x P. Therefore, if you halve the radius you double the rotational rate, it is NOT squared. |
The angular momentum of a mass m rotating at a radius R with tangential velocity v is R x mv = R x P as you say. However if you express that in terms of the angular velocity (also called the rotational velocity) ω where v=Rω then the angular momentum is mR^2 x ω. So if you halve R then by conservation of angular momentum the rotational velocity i.e the number of degrees moved per second is increased by a factor of 4.
https://www.toppr.com/guides/physics/system-of-particles-and-rotational-dynamics/angular-velocity-and-angular-acceleration/#:~:text=It%20is%20also%20known%20as,second%20(rad%2Fs).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just what I was going to say, @Alastair Pink. 
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@Origen,
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You know it makes sense.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
There is no such thing as Centrifugal Force; |
......
Well to be a bit more precise there is no such thing as Centrifugal Force in an Inertial Frame of Reference. In a Non-Inertial Frame of Reference ( e.g that of the skier who is going on a curved path) the Centrifugal Force is perfectly real, is felt and can be measured. |
Agreed ... but given that we ARE in an inertial frame of reference when assessing what is happening here I think my point is valid. There is no 'Centripetal Acceleration' that can be 'used' as OP claims ... it's referred to as a Fictitious Force for a reason.
As a side note for those interested (probably none) some physicists are now claiming that there is no such thing as a Gravitational Force either; we are merely experiencing movement through curved spacetime and, in our Non-Inertial frame of reference, we perceive it as Gravity. However, I suspect we'd rightly get slung out for starting such a debate here .
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
| Angular momentum is also conserved and follows the law L = R x P. Therefore, if you halve the radius you double the rotational rate, it is NOT squared. |
The angular momentum of a mass m rotating at a radius R with tangential velocity v is R x mv = R x P as you say. However if you express that in terms of the angular velocity (also called the rotational velocity) ω where v=Rω then the angular momentum is mR^2 x ω. So if you halve R then by conservation of angular momentum the rotational velocity i.e the number of degrees moved per second is increased by a factor of 4. |
Damn - you're right. Must remind myself to double check and not confuse terms.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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To be clear what they are talking about, here is the issue that I first posted-about months ago:
I am traversing the slope and going to make a right turn, but I am going a little-bit faster into the turn than I want to be going, and rapidly running out of room to make the turn as I approach the left-edge of the run. So rather than trusting a relaxed carved-turn to happen when I relax my right-leg, I will drag my left-pole a bit behind me to the left, at about 8:00 on the clockface. When I anticipate the turn by reaching the pole ahead of me to my right, to about 2:00, this alone turns my edges, and the left-ski starts to carve and turn to the right. When I then bring my arms and poles in tight to my body, it's like a skater in a spin, who speeds up their rotation by bringing their arms in close to their body to tighten the spin-circle, because of conservation of rotational-momentum.
Do you think this is actually occurring, or I simply underestimate the turning power of the curved carving-ski?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Blackblade, see what you did...she came back and she started thevwhole shitshow again 
Please....no-one reply to her post
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Blackblade, @Alastair Pink, am I right that the R here is from the centre of rotation?
So in the case of a skater spinning, bringong their arms in reduces R (by quite a large percentage). Yet for a skier, drawing their arms in, towards their body, makes no difference to R as thats measured from the center of the turn. One arm moves away from the center of rotation and the other in by the same amount?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@holidayloverxx, sorry!
In my defence, I wasn't replying to @GinaMaekeUpScience,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adithorp wrote: |
@Blackblade, @Alastair Pink, am I right that the R here is from the centre of rotation?
So in the case of a skater spinning, bringong their arms in reduces R (by quite a large percentage). Yet for a skier, drawing their arms in, towards their body, makes no difference to R as thats measured from the center of the turn. One arm moves away from the center of rotation and the other in by the same amount? |
Yes on both points.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
To be clear what they are talking about, here is the issue that I first posted-about months ago:
I am traversing the slope and going to make a right turn, but I am going a little-bit faster into the turn than I want to be going, and rapidly running out of room to make the turn as I approach the left-edge of the run. So rather than trusting a relaxed carved-turn to happen when I relax my right-leg, I will drag my left-pole a bit behind me to the left, at about 8:00 on the clockface. When I anticipate the turn by reaching the pole ahead of me to my right, to about 2:00, this alone turns my edges, and the left-ski starts to carve and turn to the right. When I then bring my arms and poles in tight to my body, it's like a skater in a spin, who speeds up their rotation by bringing their arms in close to their body to tighten the spin-circle, because of conservation of rotational-momentum.
Do you think this is actually occurring, or I simply underestimate the turning power of the curved carving-ski? |
I think here the physics get a bit complicated. Since you’re connected to your skis any movement of your body will have an effect on them.
Your whole body (and skis etc) is describing an arc around a theoretical pivot point with a given turn radius. That radius will be, if you’re not skidding, the carve radius of the skis so likely somewhere in the 16m-24m range assuming all mountain type skis. Phil Smith at Snowworks talks about three ways to turn skis; twisting, pushing and edging. I think the drag from a trailing pole is likely too small to be material since you’d lose balance if you pushed it hard into the snow. However, it would likely cause your body to be slightly turned to the left. A sudden movement of weight then to the right would then create a twisting moment (rotation) and that would impact the skis. I’m no expert but the one thing I’m pretty sure about is that the only way to create a turn is by the interaction of the skis with the snow; but the movement of your body (twisting/pushing/edging) is what originates and controls that interaction. As such, hard to be sure; I think the drag from the pole is immaterial but a sudden rotation from left to right of the body would have an impact.
The son of a very good friend did a whole PhD on how Marcel Hirscher was able to put pressure onto the outside ski so early in the turn; a feat that was originally considered impossible since he notionally had no lateral movement at that point since he was not yet turning. He was working with the Swiss national team at the time and they wanted to know why Hirscher kept consistently winning. So, in summary, the physics gets very very complicated quite quickly and the maths even more so.
Ultimately, whilst my inner nerd loves all the physics, skiing is a craft skill; whilst we can discuss how Marcel Hirscher/Ted Ligety et al perfom and clever people can build sophisticated models the reality is that the best skiers probably don’t know the physics. They’ve practised and practised until they’ve developed counter-instinctual reflexes. The reason I find skiing (in common with motorcycle racing which I also do) so absorbing is that it is not instinctual; you have to learn to overcome natural reflexes in order to be any good at it; it’s not instinctual to lean forward on a steep slope, it’s not instinctual to accelerate when a vehicle is sliding in a turn.
As such, to cut to the chase, I’ve spent a whole lot of money on instruction and been lucky enough to find the right coaches who’ve massively improved my skiing. I count it as some of the best money I’ve spent. I never knew how real carving felt until I finally achieved it; then it suddenly was clear. However, I’d never have got there without coaching; I thought I WAS carving when I really wasn’t … I was weighting the ski laterally instead of longitudinally and causing it to, very slightly, skid as a result. At the same time, if I’m skiing off piste in cut up powder, I learned that I should push the outer ski out laterally to create ‘modern style’ powder turns.
However, what I found was that I needed multiple sessions, interspersed with practice, to make progress and the great coach I found (happy to give references if anyone out there would like) had a long term game plan that we executed over quite some time. I was working on things which I didn’t really understand and didn’t feel quite right … but each, in turn, added up … and, finally, they came together and made sense.
Ultimately, have fun; if you don’t get on with a coach then pick another … but if you want to improve then you will need one (the very best sportspeople in the world all have coaches) … and if you’re quite happy where you are then go for it and don’t worry.
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| adithorp wrote: |
@Blackblade, @Alastair Pink, am I right that the R here is from the centre of rotation?
So in the case of a skater spinning, bringong their arms in reduces R (by quite a large percentage). Yet for a skier, drawing their arms in, towards their body, makes no difference to R as thats measured from the center of the turn. One arm moves away from the center of rotation and the other in by the same amount? |
I think you’re mixing up rotation of a body around its own axis (spinning/rotation) with movement of a body around a notional point (orbiting/turning). As such you’ve got two different radii. The radius of the turn, R, is unaffected by the arms but if there is any spin of the body then the position of the arms will change the radius (let’s call that small r). Being pedantic here … sorry.
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@Blackblade, have you read this thread? The best response to this person's posts is to ignore them. Please.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Blackblade, have you read this thread? The best response to this person's posts is to ignore them. Please. |
Sorry, no, was just catching up on the latter pages. I’ll desist.
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@Blackblade, thanks
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FAQ
. Please please anyone that monitors things over at TGR, let us know how she gets on if she decides to impart her wisdom over there... 
