 Poster: A snowHead
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Probably been asked n+1 times, but I'm considering the options, I guess the equation is between
Price
Convenience
Performance
ie something that is no hassle to use & transport & performs well, won't be cheap, but I do like good value & usually buy a high model in last years colours or 2nd hand.
I try to avoid a back pack on piste. Offpiste, I rarely have more than shovel, probe & a small bottle of water. I don't go touring, maybe a 20 min boot pack. Light weight is probably my biggest criteria, after buying new skis this season, there's not much left in the bank it needs to be cheap.
Types that I have seen available
Compressed gas, seems to be cheapest, how much of a hassle is air travel with these? Weight is ok if you use a composite cylinder? Single use (not really a problem, if I'm caught in an avi, I'm not going back offpiste that day!)
Capacitor & battery
More expensive but multiple shots & less hassle at airports? Weight?
I've seen ABS packs for sale 2nd hand, how much & in what way have they improved ?
Chances are that I will ask for advice, read it, then ignore it & buy whatever the guy in the pub is selling  either that or I go looking for the cheapest option & come home with the best model & a ruined financial plan.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sport pursuit have some ABS bags with heavy discount £535 down to £270, but doesn't include the gas cannister/battery bit.
There's then also options of add on luggage sections on there also.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@tangowaggon, can only speak on the canister stuff. If you plan to go to N. America you will have issues. I've flown twice to N. America with my canister and it got removed from my hold luggage once (on the way out). I'm ok with that, never any issues in Europe. I always pack the canister separate to the bag wrapped in the IATA regulations, usually in a ski boot.
Thing to remember bout batteries is they are heavier and when I was searching for bags 5-6 years ago they had operating temperature issues. Which again may be an issue if you plan to go skiing in cold places like interior BC but not so much the Alps or Norway
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Chances are that I will ask for advice, read it, then ignore it & buy whatever the guy in the pub is selling either that or I go looking for the cheapest option & come home with the best model & a ruined financial plan. |
This is probably the most important bit!
ABS bags have been around ages, so you really can pick them up cheap. Take it into a shop to get it tested, and you should be fine. Replacement cartridges are about 50 quid, or they were when I last bought one, which admittedly was about 5 years ago. You can pick those up on the used market too (obv not used!) but check the weight if you do this and replace if not full. Some are the zip-on models, for which you can get numerous options, also from other brands. I tried out the grey model that looks like a turtle shell (2020?) in a shop, and found the “easy access” pull out system to be fiddly and potentially problematic, though someone may have better real experience with that. Also, the grey with extra grey is the dullest thing ever!
Mammut told me that they replace their (Snowpulse) cartridges for free, but I don't know if that's only in their own shops. They have some pretty lightweight bags, though these are not as practical in terms of durability and access to your stuff, so may drive you a bit bonkers. Their standard bags are pretty popular though.
The Scott capacitor bag is more expensive, but there are no cartridges to pay for. You may be able to pick one up used by now. I did a size comparison on here a year or so ago, with photos, if you want to see how big they are.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I’ve had 2 ABS, 2 Pieps battery, and now a Scott capacitor. In terms of airport hassle they are in that order. The ABS needs registration in advance with the airline and often hassle at the airport, with lengthy bag drop. The Pieps battery don’t need registration, but if you take them as cabin bag, you often have to explain to the x-ray scanners what the large solid mass is in your bag. The Scott capacitor is no hassle at any point, and I’ve never been questioned by the security scanners.
In terms of use, the battery and capacitor, both inflate better than the ABS, as they force fill to guarantee the airbag is full, whereas the ABS is a one shot event, that relies on the Venturi effect for most of the inflation. This means that any obstruction or restriction during the inflation results in a non-recoverable partial inflation, and thus lower ‘floatation’ in the avalanche.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have the lightest Mammut bag, because... it's significantly lighter than anything else. It's pictured in an older thread here, about 1.3Kg from memory, plus whatever you put in it. For me that's spade/ probe/ selfie stick/ spare puffy but there's space for a lot more. The small/light end of the market doesn't offer much choice, for whatever reason. I've ridden... 83 days with this and it looks like new.
My gas bag doesn't need advance registration with the airline, and I did call them to check when I bought it. Bag drop is normal these days. The regs say these need to go in the hold. I carry the cylinder mounted (as per the regs, counterintuitive as that is), and wrap them in the IATA regulations with the correct section highlighted. Despite that, after 17 non-eventful Air Canada flights with it plus a few Iceland Air, the Vancouver baggage handlers stole it on an internal flight. AC paid up the value of a new cartridge within a couple of days... but you can't buy carbon cylinders in Canada (it's political...). Someone gave me a metal cylinder and I stashed it in Canada for future uses.
I've also used most electric bags. The early ones at least had firmware and other issues, so I'd be very wary of second hand unless you really know what you're buying. I met many people with electric bags who simply stopped using them because of those problems. The last couple of seasons... I've used more modern electric bags and they're lighter (but way heavier and bulkier than my Mammut) and seem to work as advertised. They all feel big.
I've inflated both cylinder and electric bags and haven't noticed any difference. If there are statistics showing that electric bags are safer, I'd like to see them. Evidence please.
In BC bag use seems down this year. I'm not sure what that's about - possibly relatively fewer EU visitors than usual.
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@phil_w,
That's because helicopters are pretty clean inside. No oil drips from old poma lifts 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
I’ve had 2 ABS, 2 Pieps battery, and now a Scott capacitor. In terms of airport hassle they are in that order. The ABS needs registration in advance with the airline and often hassle at the airport, with lengthy bag drop. The Pieps battery don’t need registration, but if you take them as cabin bag, you often have to explain to the x-ray scanners what the large solid mass is in your bag. The Scott capacitor is no hassle at any point, and I’ve never been questioned by the security scanners.
In terms of use, the battery and capacitor, both inflate better than the ABS, as they force fill to guarantee the airbag is full, whereas the ABS is a one shot event, that relies on the Venturi effect for most of the inflation. This means that any obstruction or restriction during the inflation results in a non-recoverable partial inflation, and thus lower ‘floatation’ in the avalanche. |
Interesting.. I've never registered the cartridge on about 20 flights I've flown with it and only had an issue flying Canada -> UK (the one of two times) but that's because you can't take a full canister to NA. Have also never had an issue with bag drop. It's in the IATA regulations (within Europe) that you can fly with it. I can see why you would have issues taking it as hand luggage but i've never bothered with that
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| PowderAdict wrote: |
I’ve had 2 ABS, 2 Pieps battery, and now a Scott capacitor. In terms of airport hassle they are in that order. The ABS needs registration in advance with the airline and often hassle at the airport, with lengthy bag drop. The Pieps battery don’t need registration, but if you take them as cabin bag, you often have to explain to the x-ray scanners what the large solid mass is in your bag. The Scott capacitor is no hassle at any point, and I’ve never been questioned by the security scanners.
In terms of use, the battery and capacitor, both inflate better than the ABS, as they force fill to guarantee the airbag is full, whereas the ABS is a one shot event, that relies on the Venturi effect for most of the inflation. This means that any obstruction or restriction during the inflation results in a non-recoverable partial inflation, and thus lower ‘floatation’ in the avalanche. |
Interesting.. I've never registered the cartridge on about 20 flights I've flown with it and only had an issue flying Canada -> UK (the one of two times) but that's because you can't take a full canister to NA. Have also never had an issue with bag drop. It's in the IATA regulations (within Europe) that you can fly with it. I can see why you would have issues taking it as hand luggage but i've never bothered with that |
Maybe it's easier now than it used to be. I would walk up to the checkin-bag drop desk, tell them I was carrying an airbag under the IATA regulations, and very rarely got a "That's fine" as they added a note to my booking, but more usually a 10-15 minute wait while they tried to find someone who knew what one was.
On the 5 times I flew back from Vancouver, the checkin response was more typically effectively "So what", as had probably already seen 15 others that day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We have had the Snowpulse gas bags for 11 years - never had to activate them.
Despite the fact that the cylinders are still their delivery weight and the bags are still serviceable we decided now was the time to replace. Mrs SL, bring of an engineering persuasion, decided to do some research and weight up the pros and cons of various models. Came to the conclusion that in terms of functionality there was not much to choose between them.
However, although we normally leave the bags in France we did have a lot of hassle with getting the gas bags on flights 3 years ago, despite extensive pre-arrangement. It was a trip to Chile, but involved BA amongst others. We’re close to missing several flights and enjoyed (really) the company of armed Chilean security. So a bit of a disincentive.
Anyway in the end we opted for the BCA capacitor bags. A big advantage (confidence wise) we have found since purchasing is the ability to practice triggering (anticlimactic), but also to repack and try again. Although the gas bags you can do a dummy triggering with you don’t get the opportunity to ensure your repacking is up to scratch.
In daily use there does not seem to be much difference although the new ones are a little lighter.
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This is starting to look expensive, I like the sound of the capacitor system ( not literally)
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You know it makes sense.
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I replaced a 13 year old ABS with a Mammut Flip last year. Probably nothing wrong with the ABS but I'm prone to following the manufacturer's recommendations on safety gear. It just isn't worth mucking around with it.
In 13 years of flying with a gas cannister, I have never had a serious problem. Lots of questions and some delay at the airport but never been denied boarding.
I went with the flip for weight reasons. It's sub 2kg with the carbon cannister and this makes a massive difference as I will tour with it. Most important thing is just having a bag. I think they are all pretty similar.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I go looking for the cheapest option & come home with the best model
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You predicted the outcome 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I had a BCA float, eventually gave up on it after multiple hassles at airports across the Alps, even though they are 'allowed'. I had to leave a canister in Basel Mulhouse Airport as the french security dude told me it was 'his airport' and he could do what he wanted - the canister was not going on the plane!
So I sold the back pack and now have a Scott Alpride E1 Capacitor system. I got it for £550 last year. It is far lighter than my previous canister pack and really well designed. I have been on 4 flights with it, with zero issues. You can deploy and test without the faff of buying new canisters or refilling.
The 22L E1 system is small, light and neat on your back, the system is also very easy to move between different back pack sizes - I have both 22 and 30l backpacks and the airbag system can be moved between them in a few mins.
If you have a choice of backpacks, then the capacitor system is the only choice if you want to fly. In fact I don't know why you would buy any canister based system now, apart from cost I guess.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One of the guys on my trip over NY had a new capacitor bag and did some test pulls and repack - seems like a huge advantage over the old canister system re the multiples pull capacity, the deflate to give some air pocket and the lack of flying hassle. I'm very tempted!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've got a ABS 24L Vario c/w with other sized zip ons and carbon canister on eBay at the moment, well worth buying, excellent condition and price right for fellow SH's.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
If you have a choice of backpacks, then the capacitor system is the only choice if you want to fly.
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Simply not true. Assuming you don't have a carbon cannister the only place it's an issue is USA. Any normal ski airport sees them all the time. Even flying into non-ski destinations (Turkey and multiple Central Asian airports) I've never had an issue just packing it without any other precautions (e.g. approval from airline, wrapping it with documentation etc.).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you have a choice of backpacks, then the capacitor system is the only choice if you want to fly.
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Simply not true. Assuming you don't have a carbon cannister the only place it's an issue is USA. Any normal ski airport sees them all the time. Even flying into non-ski destinations (Turkey and multiple Central Asian airports) I've never had an issue just packing it without any other precautions (e.g. approval from airline, wrapping it with documentation etc.). |
Haven't you seen Interpaul's comments above?
He's had so much hassle at airports, he's given up on airbags with canisters... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I would echo the comments above about travelling across Europe (France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Spain) experiencing zero issues with ABS/Mammut ‘compressed air’ canisters and airbags. For the past 3 or 4 years there has been no need to even inform the airline of your intention to fly with one.
I use the Mammut RAS2.0 and 3.0 systems as I find the flexibility of being able to use the airbag system in multiple accommodating backpacks of great benefit; you can simply select the size of backpack required for the task accordingly.
I can’t lie and say I haven’t been tempted by the newer electric/fan style packs, especially so if starting from scratch, but there is nothing really compelling me to change at the moment.
..Nick
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you have a choice of backpacks, then the capacitor system is the only choice if you want to fly.
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Simply not true. Assuming you don't have a carbon cannister the only place it's an issue is USA. Any normal ski airport sees them all the time. Even flying into non-ski destinations (Turkey and multiple Central Asian airports) I've never had an issue just packing it without any other precautions (e.g. approval from airline, wrapping it with documentation etc.). |
Haven't you seen Interpaul's comments above?
He's had so much hassle at airports, he's given up on airbags with canisters... |
Yes it was him I quoted originally. I can only speak for myself and friends/family who's experience is all the same - flew all over the world (except USA) with zero issues including a bunch of airlines and airports that I doubt see too many airbags (Turkish, Pegasus, two different Istanbul airports, bishkek, Almaty).
Most airlines specifically state they take avalanche airbags, there's no need to even notify them. Most airports are used to seeing them. The only times I heard of people having issues were years ago when airbags were relatively new and less common.
So I have to disagree that capacitor is the only choice if you want to fly. Do you really think there would even be a UK market for airbags if you couldn't fly with them?!
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Bergmeister wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you have a choice of backpacks, then the capacitor system is the only choice if you want to fly.
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Simply not true. Assuming you don't have a carbon cannister the only place it's an issue is USA. Any normal ski airport sees them all the time. Even flying into non-ski destinations (Turkey and multiple Central Asian airports) I've never had an issue just packing it without any other precautions (e.g. approval from airline, wrapping it with documentation etc.). |
Haven't you seen Interpaul's comments above?
He's had so much hassle at airports, he's given up on airbags with canisters... |
Yes it was him I quoted originally. I can only speak for myself and friends/family who's experience is all the same - flew all over the world (except USA) with zero issues including a bunch of airlines and airports that I doubt see too many airbags (Turkish, Pegasus, two different Istanbul airports, bishkek, Almaty).
Most airlines specifically state they take avalanche airbags, there's no need to even notify them. Most airports are used to seeing them. The only times I heard of people having issues were years ago when airbags were relatively new and less common.
So I have to disagree that capacitor is the only choice if you want to fly. Do you really think there would even be a UK market for airbags if you couldn't fly with them?! |
You are right, you can fly with them. But I gave up in 2019 as although the airlines may accept them, there is different levels of understanding on the ground at airports. I chose to stop flying with them to avoid the hassle and stress.
I like the capacitor system, it is light and easy to test deploy, and in my experience they are a lot easier to take on a flight.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tangowaggon, Buying _now_, I'd go for a capacitor system. Ease of use, ease of test etc.... But might not be the absolute lightest solution.
Ive had various issues with ABS in Europe in the past.... Which may now all be resolved.
Also, ergonomics of the newer bags is better....
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@Ski lots, Hi perhaps you can give me some advice. I am travelling to Chile and Argentina with my family in July/August. We have already booked Bariloche for the first 11 days. We are going to go round Argentina eventually ending up in Chile. Where would you recommend in Chile? Looking at the ski resorts there are no towns nearby to stay. Thanks
W
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Fish323, I’ll send you a pm latter.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Fish323, you'd be better off starting a new thread in "the piste".
Few people will come across it in a thread about avi' airbags.
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Could an Alpride E1 system owner advise on how easy and foolproof it is to move the system between rucksacks? I have a Scott Patrol 30 and thinking of getting a larger bag such as the Alpride 40L.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'd look at weight if I were you @tangowaggon, some of these current models are 3kg empty with the airbag and associated technology to deploy it. Mine is 3kg empty even with a carbon canister, so I reckon I can lose 1KG with an upgrade which is a fair bit off my back!
I've flown all around Europe and Japan and back with canisters and no issues.
I'm tracking weights in this thread https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=162944
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Could an Alpride E1 system owner advise on how easy and foolproof it is to move the system between rucksacks? I have a Scott Patrol 30 and thinking of getting a larger bag such as the Alpride 40L. |
Very easy. Takes about 5 minutes. Pretty much idiot proof. I much prefer the 40l bag. Carries better and has a nicer layout.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There is like a 7 page thread on the equipment review forum that details people's experiences with flying with airbags - it is hassle to fly with a gas canister and you run the risk of encountering a difficulty security official even if your airline is cool with carrying it.
I've gone for the Osprey Soelden Pro 32. The E2 system gets good reviews. Mainly based on ease of flying, ability to do multiples pulls on one charge so I can test it and no hesitate to pull in the 'wild'. Also its the newest tech so should be good for like the next 10 years.
Downsides are as I expected, man that bag is heavy (3kg) and its very noticable vs my non airbag bag. Hope I don't mind it too much whilst touring, plus the 32l capacity is reduced by the system.
Bag itself seems decent with good space, zips, carry straps avy section etc.
https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/snow-sports/best-avalanche-airbag
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| I've gone for the Osprey Soelden Pro 32. The E2 system gets good reviews. Mainly based on ease of flying, ability to do multiples pulls on one charge so I can test it and no hesitate to pull in the 'wild'. Also its the newest tech so should be good for like the next 10 years. |
Ultracapacitors are basically as good as it is ever going to get when it comes to electric air bags. Electric motors and fans already operate at near theoretical efficiency as do the ultracapacitors. You would need a breakthrough in materials technology for the bag to make any significant difference. Perhaps someone will eventually work out how to make artificial spider silk.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Has anyone fondled the Millet Trilogy 35 e2?
Looks a pretty nice minimalistic setup although still not as light as some of the gas cylinder offerings
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Has anyone attached a Dynafit water bottle holder to the Scott Patrol E1 30l shoulder strap? I currently have a hydrapak attached using a small carabiner but looking for something more sturdy.
Also having issues getting the helmet carrier to stay attached - helmet fell out and rolled down the mountain. Anyone else struggling with this add-on?
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I've got a Patrol E1 40, and can confirm that the helmet carry isn't the best, and it's very easy to dislodge your helmet. I switched to using small carabiners through the equipment loops and the 'Y' of the helmet straps on either side so it can't come loose.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes it's a bit rubbish. It works best if you attach the upper loops to the uppermost gear loops - holds a helmet fine then but yes, the velcro is a fiddle to secure and prone to detaching if you fettle with it too much.
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Just invested in a new setup. Went for an ARVA canister pack. This was almost entirely on the basis of weight (and cost to a lesser extent). Public price on a 2-backpack (18L & 32L) + carbon canister bundle can be found for about €690. Pack weight is about 2.1kg empty. This is for a relatively heavy-duty pack with very durable fabric and all the bells and whistles (snowboard carry, etc.). They do also do a lighter "tour" version which saves a couple of hundred grams.
I couldn't find a comparable electric pack which came in much under 3kg. There are a few which claim to be around the 2kg mark, but these are often lacking basic features (like snowboard carry!) and look like they're made of tissue paper.
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FAQ
