 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi from Australia.
I'm in France for 5 weeks starting January 7. Whilst I've skied off the marked runs in US and Canada fairly extensively I have only dabbled in the areas just off the marked pistes while I've skied in Europe. Being from sub-tropical Brisbane I only ski about 15 to 20 days per year so I'm a permanent adventurous intermediate or perhaps low advanced skier. I admit to being a bit 'wanna be' though. I like to get out of my comfort zone to a degree.
I understand off piste in Europe is very much "you're on your own". I understand it is not in any way controlled or patrolled.
I will spend the first week in Les Arcs in an 'off piste' course. They supply avi gear. I will hire a guide on other days (primarily powder days) for the second/third and fourth weeks (which will be in various areas in the Tarantaise). Apparently they supply avi gear. The last week I will be in Chamonix and will join the group guiding service most days and again they apparently supply avi gear. I guess half the time I will be skiing on the marked runs.
Given I will be supplied avi gear I assume there would be little advantage me buying or hiring my own? I don't expect I will do any proper off piste skiing in Europe in the future without a guide.
Thanks in advance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Correct. All decent operators should lend you kit and teach you how to use it properly.
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I like to get out of my comfort zone to a degree.
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If the snow is good, it’s a different level. Enjoy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@sbooker, hmmm ...
My understanding/experience in e.g. Cham is that guides will take you to a shop to hire the necessary. My recollection from bro hiring gear (admittedly in Italy, last year) is that ~two weeks makes it worth buying. Possibly one week breakeven.
Chamonix guides, in and of themselves are self employed and I don't know any with the resources or inclination to maintain a fleet of rental avvy gear (I only know a few but still).
If you are doing a course, maybe, but again, in Cham, of the courses I know, they rent thru e.g. Concept. And again, it's not cheap ... Cuz did a summer week's Mont Blanc climb course and cost to rent all kit for the week was iirc 40-50% of retail purchase ... he went home with a heavier bag than he arrived.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@sbooker, It really depends on whether you are being charged an additional fee for the avi gear. If it’s already included, it’s unlikely you will be charged less if you bring your own. They may also want you to use their transceivers, as they know they work, have good batteries etc, and it may also be an insurance liability issue. I’ve been forced to use the tour providers transceiver when heli-skiing in Canada, even though I had my own superior one.
Another minor thing to consider is the weight of the equipment, a decent shovel, probe and transceiver will be in the 1.2-1.5kg range (I know you can go much lighter), so may eat into your luggage allowance if you are limited.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Familiarity with your equipment helps in an emergency. Trying to remember how your shovel fits together or your probe locks when under pressure isn't ideal; being sure how to change your beep to search mode is even more crucial.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Familiarity with your equipment helps in an emergency. Trying to remember how your shovel fits together or your probe locks when under pressure isn't ideal; being sure how to change your beep to search mode is even more crucial. |
This.
I don't know why anyone looking to do a reasonable amount of offpiste wouldn't buy their own gear.
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^^^ thirded. A transceiver, probe and shovel don't cost the earth in the context of a 5 week ski trip and reduces faff time every time you ski with a different guide
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When my transceiver had a meltdown (thanks @Val Desire, ) this year I had to borrow one for a few days. Even though it was a decent model and i throughly familiarised myself with its operation, I was uneasy about the prospect of having to use it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's actually easier if guests just use the supplied gear: if people use their own transceivers then everyone else needs to be shown how to turn each type off. Plus you have to be sure that their gear is actually correct.
If it's included in the cost there's zero advantage in buying something you're not familiar with instead. In BC at least each separate trip would involve you being trained on safety, so there's no additional "faff" involved, you're going to have to practice with your probe and shovel and transceiver whether it's yours or theirs.
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@philwig, yes, but an organised heli holiday is not the same as turning up at the maison des guides and joining a random group and guide. The MdH may maintain their own fleet of kit but I know several companies on organised trips who troop their clients into Concept, Sanglard etc.
And using your own kit is significantly cheaper.
And if you are just hiring your own guide for the day, you’ll either be using your own or directed to options for hire.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was uneasy about the prospect of having to use it.
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This must be the understatement of the year. Even if I knew my equipment perfectly and was skilled in using it I'd be uneasy about me or someone in my party being under an avalanche. 
Every year we head off to the Dolomites for some rock climbing. What we are usually aiming for are routes of about 200m+ of grade IV standard or lower. For various reasons this year we spent a couple days sport climbing and were talking to some of the other climbers there about why they were not on the magnificant cliffs that surrounded them. Almost everyone said they were scared of doing it. It wasn't the climbing that scared them (grade IV is quite easy and they were climbing much harder than that) but the equipment needed, the route finding, the knowing what to do when things go wrong, the weather etc.
In my mind that is the difference between off piste and piste skiing. Off piste you are in the mountain environment where lots can go wrong (a guide will help mitigate this) and you are on your own resources. You need the skill to deal with it, the equipment, the ability to read the weather, the navigation skills and a good team to get the best out of it. It's not just about skiing in waist deep powder.
@sbooker, A guide may be essential in Les Arcs for the area over the Grand Col or you will have to take a course on Ptarmigan avoidance. When we have hired a guide in Tignes in the past he came with all the equipment for us. It was part of the price.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@sbooker, hmmm ...
My understanding/experience in e.g. Cham is that guides will take you to a shop to hire the necessary. My recollection from bro hiring gear (admittedly in Italy, last year) is that ~two weeks makes it worth buying. Possibly one week breakeven.
Chamonix guides, in and of themselves are self employed and I don't know any with the resources or inclination to maintain a fleet of rental avvy gear (I only know a few but still).
If you are doing a course, maybe, but again, in Cham, of the courses I know, they rent thru e.g. Concept. And again, it's not cheap ... Cuz did a summer week's Mont Blanc climb course and cost to rent all kit for the week was iirc 40-50% of retail purchase ... he went home with a heavier bag than he arrived. |
Thanks. They say on their site that they supply the gear when going on the one day group guide. 100 Euro is the cost of for the full day of guiding. Sounds reasonable to me. Anyone else have an opinion on that for value.
https://www.chamonix-guides.com/en/activities/details/piste-skiing-full-day
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| Familiarity with your equipment helps in an emergency. Trying to remember how your shovel fits together or your probe locks when under pressure isn't ideal; being sure how to change your beep to search mode is even more crucial. |
This.
I don't know why anyone looking to do a reasonable amount of offpiste wouldn't buy their own gear. |
I simply didn’t know the way to go. It was a genuine question. I’ve never used avi safety equipment in my life.
So quite the contradiction in answers.
Thanks all for the input. Maybe I’ll buy some gear and then ask the guide if they want me to use their stuff or mine.
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You know it makes sense.
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@sbooker, My suggestion would be to talk to the guide on your introductory course and ask them for advice. The equipment is readily available for sale or rent in the resort. Do not worry about it now.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@johnE,
Sounds reasonable. Thanks.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| sbooker wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| Familiarity with your equipment helps in an emergency. Trying to remember how your shovel fits together or your probe locks when under pressure isn't ideal; being sure how to change your beep to search mode is even more crucial. |
This.
I don't know why anyone looking to do a reasonable amount of offpiste wouldn't buy their own gear. |
I simply didn’t know the way to go. It was a genuine question. I’ve never used avi safety equipment in my life.
So quite the contradiction in answers.
Thanks all for the input. Maybe I’ll buy some gear and then ask the guide if they want me to use their stuff or mine. |
It wasn't an unreasonable question.
We've been on "day trips" with guides in both Val Thorens and Val D'Isere and both supplied the avi kit at no additional cost. We also did 2 days of introductory ski touring in Chamonix and, again, the guide supplied the avalanche safety kit at no additional cost.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sbooker wrote: |
| Maybe I’ll buy some gear and then ask the guide if they want me to use their stuff or mine. |
They will certainly not try to insist that you use 'their' equipment. No question about this, every time they lend kit out takes a toll on batteries, overall lifespan and risk of damage/loss. Plus the logistics of getting it all counted out and back in - although the time taken would be included in the overall day, they'd much rather be skiing than messing around in a car park handing out kit and showing punters how to use it.
I have some experience of leading off-piste over some years in an environment where we could supply transceivers but require members to bring their own shovel and probe. And frankly, anyone that had their own transceiver and looked like they knew how to use it was viewed as a bonus and automatically elevated in the leader's trustworthiness index. Yes, of course we could, and did, talk everyone through the basics, but having another experienced person on the group tends to reduce the workload, and potentially help out with backmarking etc.
One exception I've come across is harnesses, and only ever in Chamonix. The guide needs to be able to rely on a punter's harness, that it's properly fitted with the right clips etc. for their own safety as well as the punter's, so I can understand this.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| uann wrote: |
| but an organised ... holiday is not the same as turning up at the maison des guides and joining a random group and guide. |
Aye but the OP explicitly said multiple times that all of the companies "supply avi gear".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnE wrote: |
| @sbooker, My suggestion would be to talk to the guide on your introductory course and ask them for advice. The equipment is readily available for sale or rent in the resort. Do not worry about it now. |
There are definite savings to be made by internet purchases rather than the extortionate prices in resort (especially Cham). Personally I'd suggest that a decent rucksack, shovel and probe should be on everyone's shopping list before travel. Transceivers are much more expensive, so I can understand a reticence to purchase before you've even tried using one, but as others have said, familiarity with your own equipment makes a huge difference, so if you're thinking about safety gear from a perspective of safety, rather than just "the guide says I've got to have it", you should certainly consider buying one, and reading up on which are the best and easiest to use.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
One exception I've come across is harnesses, and only ever in Chamonix. The guide needs to be able to rely on a punter's harness, that it's properly fitted with the right clips etc. for their own safety as well as the punter's, so I can understand this.
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Coming from a climbing perspective I would not want to use a harness that I hadn't owned from new and never left out of my sight.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
One exception I've come across is harnesses, and only ever in Chamonix. The guide needs to be able to rely on a punter's harness, that it's properly fitted with the right clips etc. for their own safety as well as the punter's, so I can understand this.
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Coming from a climbing perspective I would not want to use a harness that I hadn't owned from new and never left out of my sight. |
Must be somewhat compromising (or possibly exciting) in the bedroom!
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@philwig, fair, but I know that at least in some cases that means "supplied from a hire shop at your expense" - absolutely not a criticism of the practice, but @sbooker, might be better off acquiring his own.
I would double check with the various guiding agencies. Do you save money with your own kit or not?
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Thanks again everyone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Oz Mammut site do some decent deals on gear. 10% discount if you sign up for spam, and the local warranty and support is helpful.
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I cannot imagine you won't sometimes go off piste without a guide with other skiers, even if you (sensibly) don't tackle many of the slopes that a guide might take you on. On this basis I always ski with a transceiver. Don't hesitate: buy a transceiver and lightweight shovel and probe. Also I guarantee that skiing far from the pistes with a guide will transform your sense of what skiing can offer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Buy the gear, wear it and have it on all the time.
edit to add: Pray you never have to use it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| sbooker wrote: |
| I don't expect I will do any proper off piste skiing in Europe in the future without a guide. |
Guides are useful/great. And if you have plenty of money, why not?
But equally there is something nice about self discovery or going to places you "know".
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Buy a transceiver take some proper tuition, read some background information and practice with it.... repeatedly!
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You know it makes sense.
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Best advice: local guides. emphasis on local...
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FAQ
