 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| And I want variety and acreage which many kms gives me |
Depends on the km's that your skiing? One day that sticks in the memory this season being the first day CairnGorm was open after the prolonged shutdown in the big January storm, me and a small group spent the entire afternoon on the White Lady and quite literally every run was a new adventure, finding a new line, some new drift, roller, or wind lip to hit, spot something, check it out, then go back and have a proper run over it and in between the perfect wind packed powder to lay out some big carves on.
Repetitive? Not in the slightest, there was probably more variety in 1km than you'd find in 20 of perfectly groomed motorway. Yet this winter I've heard (and read online) the very same individuals who bemoan lack of km, bemoan lack of pisting and that conditions were too challenging. Not saying this applies to you, but there are certainly an element of the British Piste Bashing fraternity, whom if they need a 100k's to prevent boredom perhaps need to broaden their horizon away from the mega resort motorways.
Perhaps it's a different sport, well at least a different outlook, when it's in-bounds or out, instead of on or off piste?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And I want variety and acreage which many kms gives me |
Depends on the km's that your skiing? One day that sticks in the memory this season being the first day CairnGorm was open after the prolonged shutdown in the big January storm, me and a small group spent the entire afternoon on the White Lady and quite literally every run was a new adventure, finding a new line, some new drift, roller, or wind lip to hit, spot something, check it out, then go back and have a proper run over it and in between the perfect wind packed powder to lay out some big carves on.
Repetitive? Not in the slightest, there was probably more variety in 1km than you'd find in 20 of perfectly groomed motorway. Yet this winter I've heard (and read online) the very same individuals who bemoan lack of km, bemoan lack of pisting and that conditions were too challenging. Not saying this applies to you, but there are certainly an element of the British Piste Bashing fraternity, whom if they need a 100k's to prevent boredom perhaps need to broaden their horizon away from the mega resort motorways.
Perhaps it's a different sport, well at least a different outlook, when it's in-bounds or out, instead of on or off piste? |
that sounds pretty repetitive and boring to me to be honest Alan, same scenery, same lift, same run, albeit a slightly different line...I guess with a group of you and some good crack it'd be ok, but as someone else pointed out driving many hours from the UK to do that vs a few hours from Edinburgh is an entirely different proposition.
regards,
Greg
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This is the lift map for Solitude resort, just outside Salt lake City in Utah. We spent the last day of our trip there last year - admittedly we had great conditions as we arrived to 8" of fresh snow and it continued to snow through the day
(click to downlad PDF)
When I arrived, I took the Moonbeam express lift, and skiied down to the bottom of Eagle Express. I spent the rest of the morning going up Eagle Express and skiing back down to it, and never took the same line twice. Just before lunch, we varied the routine and dropped over the ridge into Honeycomb canyon, which eventually led us back to - yep, Eagle express.
At lunch, we skiied back to the base so some of the group could stop for lunch, but given the excellent conditions a number of us chose to ski straight through. We took the powder horn lift and dropped into Honeycomb canyon, at a higher point than before. This allowed us to take the honeycomb return lift, but from the top we dropped back down into Honeycomb canyon and again went back round to eagle express. We spent the rest of the afternoon going up eagle express then dropping into Honeycomb canyon - if we dropped to skiier's left, we'd take the honeycomb return lift, otherwise we'd just ski back round to eagle express. When we took the Honeycomb return, why then we'd drop back into to skiiers right and ski round to eagle express.
I arrived just before 10.30, and took my last lift just after 3.30, completely knackered. I have no idea how many time I rode Eagle express, but it must have been well into double figures.
If you have the right conditions and the right terrain, you don't need hundreds of kilometres of piste, you just need one lift and no queues (and good mates and beer waiting for you at the end of the day!)
(originally posted here)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nbt, so, using a scottish lift, say Braveheart, or the Funicular, and given the same 8" of fresh, could you have had the same/similiar skiing experience do you think remembering you have no trees to ski through????
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kitenski, never skiied in Scotland, looking forward to trying it though
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| billb wrote: |
Horses for courses as with all things. Enjoy your ski-ing. If you enjoy a wet and windy day repeating the same few runs that's great. But I don't anymore. I'll still return to Scotland from time to time though. Regards. |
I've added bolds to your quote. there you go - continuing the myth that it's always wet and windy in Scotland. Look - I worked 7 seasons on Cairngorm and I've been here for 18. We have just as many rainy days in an average season (including this one) as I had in Aviemore. It's windy most days due to the altitude - it's windy in Cairngorm because it's close to the sea ..... Yes, it's COLDER HERE at 1600+m and the normal snow quality is better, we also have 2 seasons and the winter is a guaranteed 5 months, so professionally it's a better bet.
In addition I am also in my late 50s, have taught skiing professionally as a full time career for over 35 years, and wouldn't dream of going out on a horrid day unless paid to do so.  (I might if it's not nice in May though).
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nbt, Hopefully we'll see you the weekend after next. Plenty for J to do, even if she isn't able to ski. 
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In my post above I wasn't suggesting that Scotland could realistically market it's self against the 'Alps' as a week long holiday destination.
My suggestion was that they could pitch it as a short break 'Must Do' destination for English & Irish skiers. To add credence to the pitch they should build some 'ledgend' around some of the steep pitches - a bit like Corbets at Jackson Hole - and show some more interesting lines in the different resorts - the rocky lines at Glencoe and the drop in's to Braveheart at Nevis.
That approach would play to the strengths and if the tourist board could cut some transport deals via coach or train it would make the place a realistic proposition clients from the 'South' !
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| Quote: |
| Scotland's overall marketing of its ski resorts remains amateurish |
Well this winter Scotland just had the highest skier numbers since the mid 1990s.
Simple proof that *if* it snows then people *will* come skiing in Scotland.
Skiing is honestly a pastime that markets itself?
For the simple reason that people love to talk about skiing, and where they have been!
Just look at this forum as a good example.
Additionally the core target audience for Scottish skiing will always be people who live within 3 or 4 hours drive.
Basically people who can easily take advantage, at short notice, when the conditions turn good.
Though if people want to come from further afield I think that is fantastic.
| Quote: |
| And I want variety and acreage which many kms gives me |
Comparing Scotland to the mega resorts of the alps totally misses the point.
I actually find 250kms of wide well pisted alpine motorways pretty boring & repetitive...
For sure - Scotlands ski areas are small rugged resorts with a few t-bars and 600m vertical.
However there is nothing wrong with smaller locals ski areas!
You just need a little imagination & enthusiasm to make this most of the terrain.
There are hundreds of resorts worldwide with very similar set ups - (NZ, east coast USA, Scandinavia, smaller alpine resorts).
Personally I feel pretty damn lucky to have 5 ski resorts that are easily day trippable from Edinburgh / Glasgow or Aberdeen.
For sure the Alps have some great skiing - and I love visiting there.
But comparing Cairngorm to Courcheval or Glenshee to Gressonay totally misses the point ?
Even if the conditions back home can sometimes be world class.
Having to get on an airplane or drive 10 hours everytime you want to ski must suck ? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mountainaddict, yup IMHO there are skiers and then there are people who ski (usually for one week a year)!
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OK if you live close enough to get there and back in a day but to travel hundreds of miles for one centre only, I don't think so
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I guess with a group of you and some good crack it'd be ok, but as someone else pointed out driving many hours from the UK to do that vs a few hours from Edinburgh is an entirely different proposition.
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This is exactly what Mrs MA & I have done 6 times in the last 5 weeks ie a 600 mile/9-10 hours round trip for one day's skiing on 5 of those occasions and 1 day's skiing on the other 4.
So as to take no time off work we've also done countless one night weekend trips to the Alps (1.5 days' skiing) involving Stansted, Luton etc departures (3.5 hrs drive to each). All of this is perfectly normal for us - it's just what we do. Mountainsports (inc. mountainbiking and hiking when the snow finally disappears) are our way of life. They are something we do every weekend, rain or shine - and not just an occasional alternative to a trip to Ikea or a garden centre.
Must go - off to check out snow conditions for this weekend's Scotland run! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Having been to the Alps this season for the first time i can understand why people love the variety on offer but i've skied some great days this year at Glencoe and Nevis and even though a lot of the day will be on the same run just finding a slightly different line or a little kicker or dropping of into a gully at a different place is what skiing is about for me.
It makes me happy in a different way to blasting down pisted motorways (although i do love it)
I'll continue to head up north everyday i'm off work when there is snow but i'll also love my 6 days abroad every year 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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mountainaddict,
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| But I think that's the market which is already captured! |
If that's the case then I fear for the long term future of Scottish skiing. Without maximising and increasing visitor numbers it's hard to see how a business case for lift investment can be made. This of course is based on the assumption that the current visitor numbers don't produce the revenue required for new investment.
roga,
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| there are skiers and then there are people who ski (usually for one week a year)! |
Exactly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, I know you teach and have substantial experience and I respect that. Obviously, most skiers, including those here, only get a snapshot of conditions say 6 to 20 days of a season and that cannot compare with someone like you. BUT, over time an "average" over-riding impression of what somewhere is like emerges in one's mind, rightly or wrongly. My impression of Scotland is: wet /dull and windy, you're lucky to get sun and no wind. The Alps: often sunny and still, you're unlucky to get rain / high wind. True, that's based on FAR less days than you've had but it is still my over-riding impression.
My wife skis but has nowhere near my enthusiasm for it. If I said to her: 6 days next season ski-ing, Scotland or the Alps? The answer would take less than a heartbeat (not Scotland) and she has spent the same number of days in Scotland as I have. I'm amazed that you assert that the alpine climate produces as many rainy days as a temperate, maritime climate. Amazed. I actually wish we did have better weather and higher mountains in the UK then I could ski, say, in the Brecon Beacons on a day trip. I'd love that. Another thing about height - is it not the case that Alpine resorts will hold powder for much longer than a Scottish resort because of height (hence temp) differences. That's another major factor i.e. there's a better bet of powder in the Alps Jan to mid-March than there is in Scotland (maybe this year was an exception). Just some thoughts. Regards.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Billb - Tiree in Scotland is the sunniest place in the uk <fact>
For sure - the alps are generally more snow sure than Scotland, and generally have better weather.
However London is pretty much equidistant from Fort William & Morzine.
Basically from the south of England its a long way to go skiing anywhere.
I am guessing you probably wouldn't consider going skiing in Iceland or Noway for a week either ?
(they aren't much further away than the alps or scotland!)
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| If that's the case then I fear for the long term future of Scottish skiing |
Dont loose too much sleep.
There have been successful commercial ski centre's running continuously in Scotland since the 1960s.
And this years record breaking numbers prove that if it continues to snow then people will come.
I am very confident about the future of Scottish skiing.
However anyone comparing Scotland to the mega ski factories in the alps is totally missing the point 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga,
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IMHO there are skiers and then there are people who ski (usually for one week a year)!
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Well, there ARE people who only ski up to 12 days a year - I'm one. Not because I don't want to do more, hell I'd go for a season if I could. But other things get in the way e.g mortgages, children, money etc. etc. If you have a partner who is equally enthusiastic or one who isn't but tolerates you disappearing with planks every so often AND you can afford it you're very lucky. I think your statement is a sweeping generalisation - there are many people who would regard themselves as skiers but have to save it up for just a few days a year and don't want to be wet and miserable for those few days and so would hesitate to book Scotland. For the same reason I've given up camping in the UK - I don't want to wake up to damp clothes and a grey sky - might as well stay at home. Hell, just ignore me, I'm getting old  Regards.
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Haggis_Trap,
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I am guessing you probably wouldn't consider going skiing in Iceland or Noway for a week either ?
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Actually I would because I (we) haven't been to either so if we did go (at Easter say) I wouldn't just ski but would look around a bit as well. Well, we'd HAVE to see that volcano wouldn't we.........
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, my wife has skied 3 or 4 times in Scotland, and has said never again, in her impression it's always windy, cold or wet (or all 3), the UK dampness seems to make it feel colder than the dry Alps, she will happily(ish) ski in -15 in the Alps....
I however pop up when I can when the forecast is good and have had some lovely days there, but I would certainly never pre-book a trip to Scotland!
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Having to get on an airplane or drive 10 hours everytime you want to ski must suck ? |
Absolutely. I would love the possibility to do a day trips by car. Easily 3-4h drive one way is doable.
I envy anyone who can drive to ski.
I followed the conditions in Scotland + looked at all resorts piste maps etc.
Definitely worth many day trips.
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Meanwhile it's currently snowing again on the Cairngorms. Well over 3 m of depth at the top station. With all the new features - the huge jumps and bumps - the staff have done their best this season to make the pisted terrain interesting. I can't afford to ski abroad, but am only 40 mins from Aviemore - basically if it wasn't there, I couldn't ski. Have had 3 days so far this season (the last so hot, the guys were in shorts, kilts, Tshirts) and am going again end of this week. You can usually avoid the rough weather by checking the long-range forecast and timing it well. Yes, everyone should drop in when they can...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
when it was at its best you really would be hard pressed to beat it anywhere, and certainly getting the timing right was a breeze this year pretty much
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And with the Scottish season still in full swing it is - not was - still a breeze !
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| billb wrote: |
roga,
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| IMHO there are skiers and then there are people who ski (usually for one week a year)! |
Well, there ARE people who only ski up to 12 days a year - I'm one. Not because I don't want to do more, hell I'd go for a season if I could. But other things get in the way e.g mortgages, children, money etc. etc. |
billb I'm currently writing this in Bristol so same latitude as you and I have a mortgage, children and limited resources (as is the case for pretty much everyone I know or ski with). There's no value judgement in being either a skier or being someone who skis, you pays yer money and makes yer choice. At Cairngorm last week I met someone I know from Gloucester dry ski slope who has virtually no money and rarely slides (he's a boarder) on snow but he managed to grab a lift up and was having the time of his life in the sunshine, on snow and there was *no rain or wind* as has been the case for much of this season. I'm in Bristol but I manage to ski pretty much every week, partly because I chose to train at Gloucester to become an instructor than took the qualifications further, this also means my kids can ski cheaply and get lessons often for free. All my trips this year to Scotland have been self financing because I've instructed up there to pay the bills - that's not everyone's bag but IMHO where there's a will there's a way. That was my way but hey why are you taking it personally anyway, people are what they are but you seem to have categorised yourself and assigned a value judgement to that categorization rather than me judging by your defensive tone!
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| If you have a partner who is equally enthusiastic or one who isn't but tolerates you disappearing with planks every so often AND you can afford it you're very lucky. I think your statement is a sweeping generalisation - there are many people who would regard themselves as skiers but have to save it up for just a few days a year and don't want to be wet and miserable for those few days and so would hesitate to book Scotland. |
I think you're missing the point and being incredibly defensive - people who have the occasional kick around with a football are not footballers, they play football whereas people who play and train regularly are IMHO footballers, they don't have to be professional or even particularly good but they do it regularly - same difference IMHO and I'd apply the same to any sport I can think of! Of course people may have excellent reasons for not being more involved in training and playing football but the fact they have reasons for only kicking a ball around a few days a year doesn't change the basic fact that they 'aint footballers in my view.
For the record in the many discussions I've had here on Scottish skiing I have never suggested that people either book way ahead for Scotland or substitute a holiday in Scotland for a sole Alpine trip (quite the opposite in fact) I am therefore somewhat puzzled as to why you are jumping to the conclusion that this is my advice!!!
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| For the same reason I've given up camping in the UK - I don't want to wake up to damp clothes and a grey sky - might as well stay at home. Hell, just ignore me, I'm getting old Regards. |
I'm sorry this is your *repeated* view of skiing in Scotland but it's been very far from that this season and I've spent over 5 weeks on the mountain (Cairngorm).
| barry wrote: |
| Appreciate folk wanting the most of their hard-earned trips and each to their own, but as has been said and as has been reported in numerous TR's this season - the (multiple) days when it was at its best you really would be hard pressed to beat it anywhere, and certainly getting the timing right was a breeze this year pretty much |
Precisely! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| roga wrote: |
- the (multiple) days when it was at its best you really would be hard pressed to beat it anywhere, and certainly getting the timing right was a breeze this year pretty much
Precisely! |
THis is where I think folk get carried away and over hype Scotland, a great day anywhere in Scotland is still going to get beaten by a great day in most alpine resorts given the same travel time....
For those folk who can 'nip' up at a moments notice it's a different story......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
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| Scotland's overall marketing of its ski resorts remains amateurish |
Well this winter Scotland just had the highest skier numbers since the mid 1990s.
Simple proof that *if* it snows then people *will* come skiing in Scotland.
Skiing is honestly a pastime that markets itself?
For the simple reason that people love to talk about skiing, and where they have been!
Just look at this forum as a good example.
Additionally the core target audience for Scottish skiing will always be people who live within 3 or 4 hours drive.
Basically people who can easily take advantage, at short notice, when the conditions turn good.
Though if people want to come from further afield I think that is fantastic. |
Relying on Mother Nature for economic growth is a classic sign of weak management.
Keeping your fingers crossed and hoping for snow is not good enough for a modern country.
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You know it makes sense.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
In my post above I wasn't suggesting that Scotland could realistically market it's self against the 'Alps' as a week long holiday destination.
My suggestion was that they could pitch it as a short break 'Must Do' destination for English & Irish skiers. To add credence to the pitch they should build some 'ledgend' around some of the steep pitches - a bit like Corbets at Jackson Hole - and show some more interesting lines in the different resorts - the rocky lines at Glencoe and the drop in's to Braveheart at Nevis.
That approach would play to the strengths and if the tourist board could cut some transport deals via coach or train it would make the place a realistic proposition clients from the 'South' ! |
You are 100% on the money.
Nevis, Glencoe and Aviemore need to pull their fingers out and hype themselves up.
Nevis should americanize. Sell excitement.
Take an excavator to the Chancer black trail... make it much steeper... with a bigger dropoff... give it a cool name... something like Death Couloir... none of those stupid Scottish words... and then market the cr*p out of it every time it snows.
If it doesn't snow, blast it with manmade.
People will soon make an effort to fly up there and brag to their buddies how they did Death Couloir on the weekend.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Whitegold wrote: |
You are 100% on the money.
Nevis, Glencoe and Aviemore need to pull their fingers out and hype themselves up.
Nevis should americanize. Sell excitement.
Take an excavator to the Chancer black trail... make it much steeper... with a bigger dropoff... give it a cool name... something like Death Couloir... none of those stupid Scottish words... and then market the cr*p out of it every time it snows.
If it doesn't snow, blast it with manmade.
People will soon make an effort to fly up there and brag to their buddies how they did Death Couloir on the weekend. |
^ This I like 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Death Couloir, like it!
some of the existing names though aint bad (my loose translations in some cases!) - Mairead's Coffin, Alladin's Couloir, Jacob's Ladder, The Goat Track, Coffin Gulley, Forgotten Twin (& Left Twin, Right Twin & Siamese Twin!!), Easy Gulley ( ), Chancer, Flypaper, Gunbarrel, Alladin's Mirror Direct, Lemming Ridge ( ), and of course the infamous Haggis Trap!
gotta be plenty in there for all you 'core riders 
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Whitegold, oh well, just trying to make some positive suggestions.
But hey, the resorts have got by in the past so I guess all's good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
Whitegold, oh well, just trying to make some positive suggestions.
But hey, the resorts have got by in the past so I guess all's good. |
Uh?
Am I missing something. I was agreeing with you.
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billb, I'd just like to clarify on the rain issue: anecdotally in the 7 seasons I was in Aviemore we had around 4 days of rain every winter while on the hill. Of course lots of wind too, and I agree that it 'feels' cold due to the high moisture content of the air. However, with rare exceptions (and bearing in mind this is an area where we average 300days of sunshine a year) I could definitely confirm that we have around 3-4 days of rain (at village level) here every winter too. To be fair, it often snows not far above the village even then, but if you're on the nursery slopes all day it's pretty miserable because it is colder.
I do agree, that no-one should cancel their alpine holiday in favour of one in Scotland, but weekends are doable from the south by train, and I just think it's a shame that Scottish skiing has this 'cold miserable and wet' thing going on. Also yes - the powder does last longer in the alps (generally)
david@mediacopy, Good suggestions, the names of the runs/couloirs in Scotland are way better than they are here!! We are dullsville when it comes to naming runs. 
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| Am I missing something. I was agreeing with you. |
| Quote: |
Take an excavator to the Chancer black trail... make it much steeper... with a bigger dropoff... give it a cool name... something like Death Couloir... none of those stupid Scottish words... and then market the cr*p out of it every time it snows.
If it doesn't snow, blast it with manmade. |
Sorry - I miss interpreted (and I've just realised, misread) your comment 
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| Relying on Mother Nature for economic growth is a classic sign of weak management. |
Thinking we can always control mother nature is a sign of unjustified arrogance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oh and everything Whitegold suggests for Chancer, it's just next door in Easy Gully? Change the name, noway. From the skiers perspective, it's good old Scottish sandbagging, like when climbing grades stopped at HVS!
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
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| Relying on Mother Nature for economic growth is a classic sign of weak management. |
Thinking we can always control mother nature is a sign of unjustified arrogance. |
That mindset plays well in a student bar. But not in a cuttingedge business. Humans striving to control Mother Nature is a key driver of innovation and wealth.
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FAQ
But, for me, I've found it's changed as I've got older (I'm late 50s). When younger I'd have skied in the rain all day repeating the same run (once did that on the Traverse / Cas as nothing else was open.) I woudn't do that now - I simpy don't want to. I don't really want to repeat the same "areas" all day long even with no wind and blue sky. That's my choice, how I feel about it. Maybe you'd say I wasn't a true 
