 Poster: A snowHead
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Is the question when to buy or when to carry it? It's an expensive outlay to pick up full kit, especially if there are two of you. I'll leave that to you to decide. But if you own it:
What's the point in NOT carrying it?
Bar the start of the season, when I'm skiing for conditioning and the base is yet to form, I pretty much always carry avy gear. Even when I'm just going piste cruising with guests. You just never know what might happen, when or where.
Not brilliant for the environment but at the cheap price of batteries I almost sleep in my beeper... Why wouldn't you wear it if you own it?
I learnt my lesson a few years ago when I went up the hill on my own, without avy gear, thinking I'd go and spend some time in the park. As I arrived at the top of the lift some of my buddies had decided to hike a beautiful colouir. I had to sit on a chairlift while I watched them getting beautiful tracks down an amazing face... gutted. I’ll never do that again.
You never know what's going to happen up in the mountains.
You get used to carrying it, and it doesn’t really interfere with my skiing. Although maybe that's why sometimes I'm in the back seat. 
I always have about my person:
Beeper, altimeter, cash, CC, insurance details, mobile (sometimes turned off). Oh and hip flask. (And a gum shield - not really needed )
In the pack:
Shovel / Probe
First Aid kit incl space blanket & kendle mint cake
Heat Pads
Spare socks (can be used as emergency gloves too)
Down mitts
Neck whatsit
Spare layers (x2, base & fleece)
Knee brace
Tool kit basics incl zip ties, duct tape
Spare goggles
Sunglasses for hiking / skinning
Binoculars
Head torch
Spare bats (fit head torch & beeper)
Maps
Compass
Hydration bladder
Food incl 500ml aluminium flask
dSLR + 17-55mm + 80-300mm + spare batts, filters, flash etc
Whistle
Gecko Dude (travel companion)
Marble (gift to Ullr)
When going "into the back country" as you put it. It may also include:
40m rope
Harness + dangly bits
Skins
Ice Axe
Snow saw
Now that's a heavy pack... It all goes in a 30L. If skiing inbounds with guests then the top list goes in an 18L pack (without the camera). Yes, I'm a self-confessed gear head. On a normal ski day Mrs P will carry the following in a 12L pack:
Shovel
Probe
Basic First Aid
Multi tool
Altimeter
Food
Hydration bladder
Spare layer
I’d say this was the minimum for anyone that skis ANY off piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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parlor, very comprehensive! The question is when to buy really. Our accompanied off-piste so far hasn't been on steep pitches - no more than a blue - but I'm well aware of the various avy's that have come down onto the piste. But as you say, a basic kit for 2 people and you're looking at 700 squid plus it seems. Once you have it you might as well wear it - but it is a big outlay.
One of our weeks next season will be in Val D'Isere so Henry's talk is deffo on my list of things to do
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch, Don't want to steal parlor, 's thunder, but the big expense is the transciever - everything else is not so bad. So you could purchase (say) shovel this year, probe the next, and make up the balance by renting.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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eng_ch, I thought it might be. The convienience of owning your own gear really makes it worth it.
To try and save yourself a few pounds you could try this, wait until you are skiing lots of off piste in very deep powder until you get probes. Should save you 120-150ChF (£60ish) X2. In most cases when you are using a probe, you're too late. (Yes, I know they *can* be very good for pin pointing at the final stages of a search etc).
For shovels I found the cheapest are the plastic bladed Ortovox, in Aosta, Italy, I've seen them for just 35E. I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest. There are very cheap options but they tend to be very heavy (ex-military). Although in a couple of Swiss petrol stations in and around the mountains you can buy a very sturdy plastic bladed shovel for around 15ChF! They are a little bulky though but strong, cheap and large volume blades.
You could even rely on those funny snow scoop things... I'm sure someone can give more details, they're basically just a plastic blade with two holes for handles.
I will be advising anyone in the market for a beeper for the next two years to get an F1 (if you can use them, otherwise either Barryvox or DTS) now and then replace in two years with one of the new 3D searching, all dancing versions.
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parlor, thanks for that. BTW can you remind me of the name of the Swiss online retailer down your way that specialises in back country stuff (which is why I forgot their name)? Tele sth or other? Been trying to remember it for days!
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I found buying them all together with a pack was a better deal, I got 6 of us together and got a little more off, I bought from facewest, they have a few packages put together:
http://www.facewest.co.uk/pp/ski/packages.htm
Regards,
Greg
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch, sorry, don't know it... or can't think of it... err...
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| parlor wrote: |
For shovels I found the cheapest are the plastic bladed Ortovox, in Aosta, Italy, I've seen them for just 35E. I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest. There are very cheap options but they tend to be very heavy (ex-military). Although in a couple of Swiss petrol stations in and around the mountains you can buy a very sturdy plastic bladed shovel for around 15ChF! They are a little bulky though but strong, cheap and large volume blades.
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Though if you've ever skied over (or into!  )avy debris you'll have realised that a plastic shovel is only just better than nothing. Also if you have to do any serious digging you'll appreciate one with a longer (telescopic) handle, I found the T topped ones work best for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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yes - i'd say it's worth paying the money and getting the best kit first time round. if you buy cheap shovels and probes, you'll end up getting p'ed off with them and buying good ones before long
my top tip for getting a cheap transceiver is to buy masses of other kit at the cham3s stores and put it all on your loyalty card. you can then pick up a bleeper for about 40 quid with the discount. a bargain in the long run, i am sure 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Arno wrote: |
| the cham3s stores |
???
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You know it makes sense.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| parlor wrote: |
| I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest. |
Though if you've ever skied over (or into! )avy debris you'll have realised that a plastic shovel is only just better than nothing. Also if you have to do any serious digging you'll appreciate one with a longer (telescopic) handle, I found the T topped ones work best for me. |
Perhaps I should have explained why. Thanks stuarth.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Read some study somewhere recently that endorsed the claim that plastic/lexan shovels were a disaster in real avy digging conditions - the memorable quote was something like "if my skiing buddy turns up with a plastic shovel I'll make him swap it with my metal bladed one if he feels so good about it"
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, kindof how I feel when I ski with some people... I might buy an S1 next year and then swap with my ski buddies so they can use it to find me quicker!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch,
One more here for a metal blade and if you are carrying a reasonable and well equipped load the you'll need 20 ltrs.
If you carry the minimum for a day trip as listed by parlor, then you can look at the 11ltr packs. Personally, I think it would be a squeeze.
A half empty pack sits better than a full to the brim pack for me....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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parlor, My list, which was based on a SCGB list, is very similar to yours. I'll use your good idea re the zip ties - really obvious when you think about it. After noticably benefiting from proper powder baskets on my poles in Utah I've now added a spare basket to my list.
JT, I agree re pack size. I could squeeze my stuff in a 20L but much prefer the feel of a 'slighty compressed' load in my 28L.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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parlor, why do you carry a knee brace? Mate I must admit you do sound like a belt and braces kind of chap! Do you carry the same list when spring skiing in a t-shirt and kilt?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Like fatbob says... sort of changes depending where you are...
In Oz (similar to USA) in resort opened areas are patrolled so you can go off-piste with little risk... then there is outside resort... which could really be broken into "frontcountry" and backcountry...
for backcountry this is a packing list... http://wiki.ski.com.au/wiki/index.php/Backcountry_Checklist
Front country(easily accessed areas - so they could come and get you fastish)... I usually have water/compass/map/whistle/shells/thermals(whatever I'm not wearing) and a small firstaid kit(spaceblanket etc)...
exposure is abig risk... as is getting lost!
Must learn to build snow shelters soon!!! (and to navigate better)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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David Murdoch, I was a boy scout
1 x ACL and 1 x MCL, different ski accidents, same knee, is the main reason. I don't wear the brace all the time when I ski but I like to know it's there should my knee get a little tired. In three years of carrying it all the time I've only warn it twice myself. There are a few others that have been pleased it's in my pack though. Mrs P tore an MCL last year, by turning the hinged supports upside down it makes a great splint that helped keep her knee protected during a 30 minute sled / lift / ambulance ride.
There are days when I won't carry all of that list... trying to kill myself in the park, BBQ's but actually for spring skiing sure, still packing the pack. I'd never ski in a t-shirt either, minimum base and paclite. Skiing in a kilt on skis over 90mm is not permitted.
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parlor, aye, laddie, skiing in a kilt on skis is always permitted...
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I understand that for skiing in "avalanche terrain" the best option is the KNOWLEDGE, then is the gear..... I don't remember the name, but there's a man in Utah that does backcountry every day, in winter of course (about 150-180 days....sorry I d'ont remember..), and doesn't carry any avy gear!!
When I remember...I'll post the link.
And about backpacks?? Which brand do you use normally? Are all backcountry focused packs ok?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AlTom wrote: |
And about backpacks?? Which brand do you use normally? Are all backcountry focused packs ok? |
yes so long as they carry everything securely
i'm looking into one of the black diamond ones with an avalung built in for next season though
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AlTom,
You'll surprised how many locals don't. On the basis that if they thought it was dangerous they wouldn't go there..!!
I've come across this view before.
Maybe make sure they are hydration compatible...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
Maybe make sure they are hydration compatible... |
i'm almost at the end of my tether with hydration systems - they seem to hydrate the contents of my pack more than me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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JT, mine usually empties itself all over the contents of my pack before I even get it out of the car!
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You know it makes sense.
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I carry similar Backpack contents to JT, & parlor, - mainly to cover worst case scenario of having to spend a night out in the mountain. Certain incidents which I witnessed/participated in the past, especially for big off-piste days, have led me to add a GPS and radio to the list. Contact with emergency services and ability to give them exact location is crucial IMO. (eg.Skier with badly broken leg on Bellcote North Face - helicopter only extract possible for immobile casualty on this route. one person in my group had GPS another had radio. No mobile signal possible.)
In addition, outside the 'Backpack' - this year I did a 4-day First Aid course & a 2-day 'Wilderness Module' as my skills were woefully inadequate. I must post some feedback from this on the First Aid topic.
I aslo carried a spare basket as normal, but following a snowHeads (who shall remain nameless) 'pulverization & complete annihilation' of a pole, mid off-piste day, I now carry a telescopic pole in pack as well. (The said snowHead performed gracefully, post pole incident, by switching the remaining sound pole between hands on EACH turn, through all terrain - Formidable! - my skills in this regard would probably be found wanting and possibly very amusing to others, hence spare pole  )
I must say though, the best & most used object carried, was a roll of 2" duck tape.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Packs have different capabilities for off piste use. Mine is about 30 litres, it has one big compartment with two zips that allow it to be fully opened, shovel and probe store in the flap.. At the end of my last season's skiing I had my skis attached to the side straps as I was walking up a mountain (it felt like I was walking up the whole mountain, but the map says I only went up a few hundred metres from 2612 to 2930). Unfortunately, as I was near the top of a steeper section, the zips worked their way down and my pack emptied itself. Some of the contents wandered off to the bottom of that little slope. Hm! Luckily someone else was kind enough to veer off of their route and collect my kit.
Plan for the future. Eyes in the back of my head to keep an eye on the zips.
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Poster: A snowHead
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BernardC, Was that the incident I remember? I'm sure I caught sight of the fabled pole swithing on the odd occasions where I managed to extract my head from various piles of snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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