 Poster: A snowHead
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@galpinos, yes I always carry an extra packable down jacket (mainly in case of an accident and having to wait for help). What I don’t understand is why they stayed up there so long and didn’t descend. I wouldn’t be relying on clothing or shovels to save you in a storm like that - it would have been horrendous
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've not really been following the detail on this as I don't like being an armchair critic on such tragic situations and trying to suggest what was right or wrong, though I will say I also don't like the title of the thread either!
But has it been reported that they were only carrying light-weight gear or is that purely SH's supposition?
I know we touched upon gear carried in the Wally thread recently, and someone, I forgot who  proudly announced they don't carry any additional safety gear such as a first aid kit or extra jacket etc.
And I totally agree with @galpinos, about carrying an emergency Bivvy Bag (SOL XL) which I also carry.
Over the years I've seen a few people injured and it's amazing how once stationary how cold they get, hence the bivvy and extra jacket I carry, and you never know what terrain (eg forest) where an injury might occur, and what access / time might be involved should an extraction be necessary; I do also tend to carry more safety gear taking the load off others I tour with
I am first and foremost a fair weather day ski-tourer now especially as we don't use guides or do hut to hut trips, though one reason I carry safety kit inc Garmin InReach is that I often tour on my own, which in itself is not recommended protocol.
In the past I've been on guided trips and have turned back to the hut we'd left, and indeed stayed in that hut for one extra night as it was too dangerous to attempt to go to the next hut that was scheduled, that was the first time I'd been touring and experienced a whoomph under us, and back then I was so naive I didn't know what it was and why we had to be silent and not move for what seemed an age!
Last week on the two-day avy refresher course I was on we did practice digging and then we carried on digging a snowpit, and that was the deepest I've ever dug (2.2m) and the lower section was as you'd expect hard snow, and yes we could have made a cave out of that, even though it was not in an ideal location, and the weather was not too grim, and we were in good condition not having already been exposed to the elements for most of the day.
So has it been confirmed that their shovels/skis/poles could not dig a cave as the snow was so hard, or is that speculation?
We have the brigade de chasseurs alpins training up above us based at their barracks below the Col du Granon and again we bumped into some yesterday packing their 40kgs back-packs, so they're allowed to ski in the back-seat and in the past I've chatted with them and a big part of their training up there is sleeping out in survival caves etc - just makes you think what it was like in WW1 when there were thousands of soldiers up in the mountains fighting all year long in the conditions they had to endure etc
More on the fascinating White War Guerra Bianca, and what they had to put up with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_War
I did read that a key part of the fighting was shelling above troops to cause the mountain to avalanche over the their enemy 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 15-03-24 16:53; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Weathercam wrote: |
So has it been confirmed that their shovels/skis/poles could not dig a cave as the snow was so hard, or is that speculation? |
I can only imagine what it would be like knackered in 100kmh winds trying to dig a pit on a windswept glacier
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| I've not really been following the detail on this as I don't like being an armchair critic on such tragic situations and trying to suggest what was right or wrong, though I will say I also don't like the title of the thread either! |
Yes the thread title was more of a provocation, born of an article where different guides were asked should they have set off on the tour, the managing representative of swiss guides said that he would have gone for it too, even in light of what happened. This was probably part of a longer answer or maybe a conversation that the journo snipped into what felt like (to me) a bit of a cavalier statement when caution was surely what you'd expect. Definitely speculative but good discussion follows...
| Weathercam wrote: |
But has it been reported that they were only carrying light-weight gear or is that purely SH's supposition? |
Yes, confirmed by the rescue lead - underdressed and under equipped for the forecast conditions. SH speculation (probably accurate) that they were likely carrying minimal PdG gear.
| Weathercam wrote: |
| So has it been confirmed that their shovels/skis/poles could not dig a cave as the snow was so hard, or is that speculation? |
Statement was that there was evidence they failed to dig a cave. They were found in the open on a plateau, SH speculation was that it's likely it was too hard and the wind was backfilling whatever they could scrape. More dubious speculation was that the shovels may have been token race shovels and broke (!)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I know we touched upon gear carried in the Wally thread recently, and someone, I forgot who proudly announced they don't carry any additional safety gear such as a first aid kit or extra jacket etc.
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I wonder who that was I didn't say it "proudly". I certainly would never try to dissuade someone from carrying that sort of stuff. For what it's worth I have a light down jacket in the bag pretty much everyday, but it's not an "extra" just my jacket I throw on when necessary. I don't see the need for a first aid kit. I'm either hurt bad enough where a plaster and a triangular bandage aren't going to help much, or I can get back to the village. I have some stuff for "mechanicals" which to be honest concerns me more (mini multi tool, ski straps, zip ties, a little accessory cord - also doubles up as a snow saw and ive heard of people that lost a skin wrapping it around their ski bindings as a makeshift skin). I don't go out if the weather forecast is horrendous or at least stay pretty close to home, and I'm never really that remote (although I guess it's relative, I've crossed an almost 5000m pass, solo, in snow, up in the mountains in Afghanistan, so it's hard for me to consider day ski touring trips from a village particularly "remote"). Also my fitness is pretty good so should things turn for the worse unexpectedly I would be fairly confident of getting myself back reasonably quick.
We all have different risk tolerances. For example I wouldn't go out without a helmet, while some do happily  (I really dont want to start a helmet no helmet discussion, its just an obvious example). I also wouldn't really recommend solo touring to others but it's something I do. I'm not riding big skimo stuff, it's mostly easy meadow skipping 90% of the time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Thomasski, so as I speculated, quite a lot of SH speculation then?
We're they actually just out for the day, or were they planning to overnight in a hut?
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| Weathercam wrote: |
@Thomasski, so as I speculated, quite a lot of SH speculation then?
We're they actually just out for the day, or were they planning to overnight in a hut? |
Speculaception
I don't think their plan was reported explicitly, but a family member raised an alarm as she was expecting them to call her from Arolla. So guessing they were doing the half route in one go. I think someone speculated they were heading for a hut as they were off course, but who knows...
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And I totally agree with @galpinos, about carrying an emergency Bivvy Bag (SOL XL) which I also carry.
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That's what I carry too
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