 Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, So . . . charging them 40€ is a bit . . . well . . . restrained?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, it's like Edward John Smith saying "oh look, an ice cube"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| richmond wrote: |
I was taught, probably wholly incorrectly, to try to kick a foot (not your own!) out of its biding from the side. If it could be done not too easily, not too difficultly, all was deemed well. For forward release, the front of the skis were held down (by someone else's skis), and if the bindings released, just, when the user tried as hard as they could to lift their heel, using their weight, all was well.
As I say probably dangerous crap, but an easy check to do. |
richmond, I was taught this too - on a dry ski slope introductory course - but have recently been told it can be dangerous if done incorrectly as it can put undue strain on the knee.
What do other people think to the kick test? Useful or dangerous?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, only a matter of time...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SkiBod wrote: |
| What do other people think to the kick test? Useful or dangerous? |
Potentially dangerous, and pretty unreliable - it's rare to kick with exactly the same force in the same place.
...but it's a good laugh watching people do it. 
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veeeight, So, i'm wrong to ski my Atomic binding at 14 and my Salomon at 9 because they realease with the same forces? 
Maybe DIN is exacting in principal however i know not one decent Ski Technician would concur in practise.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 19-07-06 14:49; edited 1 time in total
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| SkiBod wrote: |
| What do other people think to the kick test? Useful or dangerous? |
Potentially dangerous, and pretty unreliable - it's rare to kick with exactly the same force in the same place.
...but it's a good laugh watching people do it. |
It certainly sounds dangerous and unreliable. It's also good fun doing it (provided you are the kicker). I rent skis, and although I can keep an eye on the settings, I don't know that the binding release will actually work. The kick test does at least give one the (probably illusory) reassurance that the bindings will release under some conditions (whether conditions that they might encounter in a fall, who knows?).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| richmond wrote: |
| The kick test does at least give one the (probably illusory) reassurance that the bindings will release under some conditions (whether conditions that they might encounter in a fall, who knows?). |
You will encounter them if you fall on someone wearing size 10 ski boots... 
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SkiBod, I can probably guess where you where taught that !
Wear The Fox Hat, Yes it is pretty unreliable, but it does show that a binding will release. If you look at the article at the start of the thread, then what they suggest there is pretty similar.
I think the reason for the kicking is that beginner skiers won't have the skill to twist out as per the article.
It is (sort of) fun as the kicker, especially this time of year if (like me) you're wearing Tevas.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
veeeight, So, i'm wrong to ski my Atomic binding at 14 and my Salomon at 9 because they realease with the same forces?
Maybe DIN is exacting in principal however i know not one decent Ski Technician would concur in practise. |
When they are both brand new, the Atomic release at 9 will be identical to the Salomon release at 9.
Over time, with dirt, worn springs, dirty grease, worn parts etc. no doubt this will change, but not to the extent of 9 and 14. There is something seriously wrong if you put both these bindings on a test machine and they produce the same release torque at those highly different DIN figures. 
WARNING: GEEKY POST FOLLOWS
There is something else to take into consideration: The individual features of each binding manufacturer.
The torque figures in Nm are given for a twist in the horizontal plane for the toe piece, and a forward lean "up" release for the heel piece.
Different manufacturers have different features, eg; Tyrolia and the diagonal heel release, Salomon and the spheric release, Marker and the upward toe release - so there will be some differences in release strategies, but on the whole, for the two "standard" figures (twist/toe. forward lean/heel) - this will always match the DIN for ANY binding for ANY manufacturer.
Other factors to take into consideration are skier, technique, terrain, shock loading, stiffness of skis etc., all of which will have an influence on if/when you release.
I *am* a decent ski technician, and I stand by the DIN standards  Over the years I have had the horror of seeing many many Brit clients turn up on my lessons, with their brand new skis (mostly from S&R) - and their bindings set to a multitude of sins. eg; Toe pieces set high to compensate for the lack of forward pressure setting etc.
So much so that my instructor colleagues normally make the joke "there are ski shops in London?" when the client tells them they bought their skis from London!
In addition:
A decent certified ski technician will not fit/adjust a boot/binding if:
Inconsistencied of the boot/binding interface
Boot toe & heel pieces do not conform to the ISO standards and measurements
Rubber and/or metal tip protectors present
Irregularities of the AFD/boot interface
Non functional AFD
Irregularities in the binding
Test for eleastic travel and return fails
The binding is not on the schedule of indemnified bindings (waiver available if customer persistent against advice given)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
veeeight, So, i'm wrong to ski my Atomic binding at 14 and my Salomon at 9 because they realease with the same forces?
Maybe DIN is exacting in principal however i know not one decent Ski Technician would concur in practise. |
When they are both brand new, the Atomic release at 9 will be identical to the Salomon release at 9.
Over time, with dirt, worn springs, dirty grease, worn parts etc. no doubt this will change, but not to the extent of 9 and 14. There is something seriously wrong if you put both these bindings on a test machine and they produce the same release torque at those highly different DIN figures.
WARNING: GEEKY POST FOLLOWS
There is something else to take into consideration: The individual features of each binding manufacturer.
The torque figures in Nm are given for a twist in the horizontal plane for the toe piece, and a forward lean "up" release for the heel piece.
Different manufacturers have different features, eg; Tyrolia and the diagonal heel release, Salomon and the spheric release, Marker and the upward toe release - so there will be some differences in release strategies, but on the whole, for the two "standard" figures (twist/toe. forward lean/heel) - this will always match the DIN for ANY binding for ANY manufacturer.
Other factors to take into consideration are skier, technique, terrain, shock loading, stiffness of skis etc., all of which will have an influence on if/when you release.
I *am* a decent ski technician, and I stand by the DIN standards Over the years I have had the horror of seeing many many Brit clients turn up on my lessons, with their brand new skis (mostly from S&R) - and their bindings set to a multitude of sins. eg; Toe pieces set high to compensate for the lack of forward pressure setting etc.
So much so that my instructor colleagues normally make the joke "there are ski shops in London?" when the client tells them they bought their skis from London!
In addition:
A decent certified ski technician will not fit/adjust a boot/binding if:
Inconsistencied of the boot/binding interface
Boot toe & heel pieces do not conform to the ISO standards and measurements
Rubber and/or metal tip protectors present
Irregularities of the AFD/boot interface
Non functional AFD
Irregularities in the binding
Test for eleastic travel and return fails
The binding is not on the schedule of indemnified bindings (waiver available if customer persistent against advice given) |
This point surly negates the common understanding of what DIN does???????????????????????????????
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My bindings have never been near a shop. They are not on the indemnified list anyway so I wouldn't expect a shop to test them.
Before anyone asks, they are brand new.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DIN is the abbreviated name of the German Institute for Standardization (Deutsches Institut für Normung) and is used in the names of its standards.
It's the German equivalent to BS or British Standards, thus all bindings from all makers set to the same DIN setting should release under the same loading, however this only covers the pre defined loading conditions set by DIN, it is possible that a particular binding manufacturer may come up with a design that will for instance allow for earlier release under certain conditions not defined by DIN, as an example a maker may devise a binding that will release automatcally if your ski gets hit whilst the binding is upside down, because this is not defined in the DIN manual it could release with a much lower pressure than it would under DIN conditions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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D G Orf, That's going in my pipe. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, what the upside down emergency release
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I try to get my bindings tested at start of every season by a ski shop I trust that has a machine to test same.....
I also dislike using bindings that are very old - and am guided by ski shop as to "turn in" time
The dins I let good ski techs set but I know the settings and can check....
NOTE: the question on the form relates to skier TYPES not standards... so it is not how well you ski but HOW you ski.....
If people understood this then the ski shops may get more truthful answers...
Good ski guy is gone from my favourite shop.... now I'm stuffed - I'll have to travel 300km to the next one!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, actually really it's both how well you ski and how you ski, a fast but smooth skier will loose their skis less often than a fast aggresive skier, even if they do exactly the same runs in the same time, sudden movement exerts more force than smooth movements
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The exact wording is Skier Type, as opposed to Skier Ability on the forms.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| The exact wording is Skier Type, as opposed to Skier Ability on the forms. |
Yes, but if someone has skiied 1 week and they say they are an agressive skier, that does not mean you set them to the same setting as a 10 year pro who skis agressively. It IS a combination of ability and agression.
Anyone who says it is just about how agressively you ski should NOT be talking about setting up bindings, cause frankly, they don't have a baldy notion.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| The exact wording is Skier Type, as opposed to Skier Ability on the forms. |
exactly....
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| little tiger wrote: |
| veeeight wrote: |
| The exact wording is Skier Type, as opposed to Skier Ability on the forms. |
exactly.... |
And your qualifications for knowing what it means are?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This may interest some, according to BASI...
Skier type
Corrections to apply to chart 1
• Adult beginner (age 25 yrs or older)
• Skier aged 50 yrs or older
Move up one line
• Young beginner (< 25 yrs)
• Child (< 17 yrs)
• Average level skier in poor physical condition
• Good skier with a smooth style, for whom safety
is important
No correction
• Good skier <25yrs with a smooth style
• Average level skier in good physical condition
Move down one line
• Good skier, skis aggressively on all terrains
Move down two lines
• Excellent skier on all terrains, including difficult
slopes
Move down three lines
But that's only BASI, and what would they know? 
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Here's an explanation from a standard release form...
Type I
"cautious skiing at lighter release/retention settings"
- ski conservatively
- prefer slower speeds
- prefer easy, moderate slopes
- favor lower than average release/retention settings
- This corresponds to an increased risk of inadvertent binding release in order to gain increased releasability in a fall
Type I settings apply to
"entry level skiers uncertain of their classification"
Type II
"moderate skiing at average release/retention settings"
-ski moderately
-prefer a variety of speeds
- ski on varied terrain, including most difficult trails
Type II are all skiers who
Do not meet all the descriptions of either Type I or Type III
Type III
"aggresive skiing at higher release/retention settings"
- ski aggressively
- normally ski at high speeds
- prefer steeper and more challenging terrain
- favor higher than average release/retention settings
This corresponds to
decreased releasability in a fall in order to gain a decreased risk of inadvertent binding release
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Good skier with a smooth style, for whom safety
is important in poor physical condition
would sum me up I'm afraid 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| richmond wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| SkiBod wrote: |
| What do other people think to the kick test? Useful or dangerous? |
Potentially dangerous, and pretty unreliable - it's rare to kick with exactly the same force in the same place.
...but it's a good laugh watching people do it. |
It certainly sounds dangerous and unreliable. It's also good fun doing it (provided you are the kicker). I rent skis, and although I can keep an eye on the settings, I don't know that the binding release will actually work. The kick test does at least give one the (probably illusory) reassurance that the bindings will release under some conditions (whether conditions that they might encounter in a fall, who knows?). |
richmond, I agree with you - it does give a kind of reassurance that they are not completely jammed and would release at some point, hopefully before your knee.... and it is fun, and a good opportunity for pre-ski bonding!!!
ski - I was taught it at Bowles near Tunbridge Wells ~ on a very good and very helpful introductory ski course before I ever got on the Real Stuff ~ I suppose I do wonder if there must be something in it because I thought Bowles were a good ski slope with some v friendly and helpful instructors who seemed to know what they were talking about (but I was a complete beginner at the time) - did you guess right?
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You forgot the most important part of the release form!
| Quote: |
| It is the skier’s responsibility to determine Skier Type. Skier Type is not the same as skier ability and the two should not be confused. Skier Type must be indicated on the workshop form or rental form by the skier. The Skier Classification Chart is available in small and large poster size versions and should be displayed to assist customers in classifying themselves. |
| Quote: |
What type of skier are you? Determining your SKIER TYPE is your responsibility! Your skier type, height, weight, age and ski
boot sole length are used by the shop to determine the visual indicator settings of your ski bindings.
Be sure to provide accurate information, as any error may increase your risk of injury. Consult these descriptions to select your classification: |
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
You forgot the most important part of the release form!
| Quote: |
| It is the skier’s responsibility to determine Skier Type. Skier Type is not the same as skier ability and the two should not be confused. Skier Type must be indicated on the workshop form or rental form by the skier. The Skier Classification Chart is available in small and large poster size versions and should be displayed to assist customers in classifying themselves. |
| Quote: |
What type of skier are you? Determining your SKIER TYPE is your responsibility! Your skier type, height, weight, age and ski
boot sole length are used by the shop to determine the visual indicator settings of your ski bindings.
Be sure to provide accurate information, as any error may increase your risk of injury. Consult these descriptions to select your classification: |
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yes but it appears I'm unable to read and understand that due to lack of qualifications.... so now where do we go!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, yup, I agree. And that summarises well what the rest of the form says - it is not just ability. But then again, some people will still say that ability has nothing to do with it and say an agressive beginner is a type III, and then wonder why they don't come out when they fall on the green run.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SkiBod,
Try to twist it out but upwards of 8 or 9 and your knees are in pretty good shape to be able to do it... so its serves both purposes. A kick is better than nothing. You don't want to be into the first fall ......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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JT, Have to say, I agree with you and still think I'm going to stick with the kick-test and just try and find someone to perform it who isn't too gung-ho about the kicking!!!! It may not be perfect, but at least you know the binding mechanism isn't jammed.
It's also a good point that presumably if you've got slightly dodgy knees, although I haven't, the self-twist test may be hard to perform, certainly at 8 or 9, but possibly even at lower DIN settings.
I was taught it at a reputable centre, so do think there must be something in it.
And I like kicking people 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's better than nothing.
(oh, and no, I don't mean SkiBod kicking people... )
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Many years ago I once took my skis for servicing in England. In the alps I got to my first fast turn and both skis came off. I looked at the Din settings and they had re-set them at 3 !!!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowball, that sort of thing happened to a guy I know who was in Whistler with a group of us. He wound down his bindings in the summer, then took them in to a shop for their pre-trip service. They didn't check his bindings. He jumped into them on day one, and came out of them on every turn. It's the only time I've set someone's bindings in a blizzard... (and I did it after explaining that he should ski down to the base and get them set properly)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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SkiBod, no doubt ski would like to agree with every word you said about your introductory course (but probably won't say so)....as he was probably one of those teaching you!
I set my bindings to 8.5 on snow and about 6 on plastic. If they come off when I don't think they should, then I crank 'em up a bit. I'll probably up the plastic setting a bit before long, as the bindings are not far off coming out when I'm flexing in the start gate.
I've never seen either a rental or service centre use a machine to test binding settings - they normally just hit the boot with their hand and see if it comes out.
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GrahamN, just goes to show ~ you've always got to be careful what you say round here! Glad I was so complimentary then - but it really was a good course!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
