The Scot Govt was asleep at the wheel for years on this, they could have directed as both HIE & the minister said and watched as the HIE wasted public money time and time again on this unmitigated disaster for the area.
You seem to have missed the point. Your quote in your previous post was in reference to HIE being directed locally - not by a Scotland wide entity or directly by Scottish Ministers. ScotGov tried to reign it but was voted down in Parliament, an outcome that seems to have further emboldened HIE that they are untouchable. Also know that HIE is not a wholly public funded entity, it has commercial income and indeed sold off a significant commercial asset in order to finance CML while bypassing ScotGov funding limits.
There is a rule in the civil service that one government department or agency is not permitted to work against or oppose an other. HIE regularly abuses this by announcing something as agreed and going ahead, with no consultation or discussion with other relevant arms of government, leaving them facing an HIE fait accompli that they can do nothing about.
HIE wine and dine local influencers to ensure local businesses who go 'off piste' with their opinions get shunned and cut adrift by other businesses who are suckling on the HIE teet.
At every stage of this debacle since serious concerns were first raised about the condition of the funicular in 2015, HIE's sole concern has been protecting their own (both past and present). There have been several calls for a public inquiry into CML and the funicular, and there should be, but it should have a wider remit to dig further into HIE.
Under pressure from HIE contractors were working at height in numbers today on the Funicular viaduct in Force 12 winds. Some routine snagging this is!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 16-12-23 20:43; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
haggishunter wrote:
Under pressure from HIE contractors were working at height in numbers today on the Funicular viaduct in Force 12 winds. Some routine snagging this is!
Have HIE said whether the cost of these 'snagging' activities that have been ongoing since August are covered by the contractor who did the £25million repairs, or whether they are additional expenditure that HIE will have to pay (courtesy of the apparently bottomless taxpayer pocket)?
Under pressure from HIE contractors were working at height in numbers today on the Funicular viaduct in Force 12 winds. Some routine snagging this is!
I have been out of mainstream civil engineering for a few years but even 30 years ago, working in 65mph + winds would not have been considered a sensible idea. Aside from the obvious increased risk, productivity would be pretty low. I never worked north of the border though, so perhaps we were just softy sassenachs.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Alastair Pink wrote:
Have HIE said whether the cost of these 'snagging' activities that have been ongoing since August are covered by the contractor who did the £25million repairs, or whether they are additional expenditure that HIE will have to pay (courtesy of the apparently bottomless taxpayer pocket)?
The "rumour" is:
i) The train is not currently fit to operate and likely wont this winter unless at very limited capacity.
ii) HIE now hope that funds won in recent legal case (see below) will be topped up by Scot Gov to replace concrete beams with steel.
Who is paying for ongoing snagging ?
No idea but it seems reasonable to conclude the last 5 years of repair work have failed.
A usually reliable source has stated that the Funicular will be operating during the Festive period. Didn’t stipulate the year mind, maybe the forecast is sufficiently windy HIE believe they can announce it is opening but only in low wind speeds, without actually ever having to prove it can run in said light wind speeds!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@haggishunter, maybe, if you believe in Santa?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ster, I suspect some people are asking Santa for a monopoly set, so they can acquire a ‘get out of jail free’ card.
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Can we have an episode of 'The Thick of It: set 9nnttje Scottish Parliament?
So HIE told one of the lead contractors on the funicular repair project that the train would be in use over the festive period - those watching the webcams frequently will have seen 7 day working irrespective of the weather in the lead upto Christmas.
After Tuesday’s bank holiday a lot of people will be back at work, so the festive period is drawing to a close and the funicular has not been used even under ‘reduced operating parameters’!
Had it done so it would have allowed HIE to claim progress and kind of reset the clock in quite a lot of people’s minds even if it closed again early January. Buying time, prevaricating and kicking the can while tying everyone up in legally binging NDAs is all part of HIEs self preservation game here.
Sounds like there are going to be more legal sparks flying over this whole mess. That suits HIE because it would likely stall any deeper investigation into the funicular for another few years.
Not for the first time, I’ve heard that HIE are basically trying to blackmail ScotGov, with the position that the funicular will be repaired or the ski area will permanently close with it.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
I suspect some people are asking Santa for a monopoly set
I asked for Meccano and Lego, so that I could nip up and fix the funi myself
If only I hadn't ended up on the Naughty List....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
They only need to drag this pantomime out till the end of 2025 to avoid repaying the rest of the EU grant and dodge the investigation that would go with that.
Worth noting they already had to return 500k for improper tendering of funicular construction works!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
If we accept that the funicular has failed and that climate change is reducing the amount of skiing available then one option at Cairngorm might be for some of the skiing to return to its roots as an area accessed only on foot. It could evolve into a niche facility aimed at skiers prepared to walk the 2.3km uphill from the car park to the Ptarmigan bowl. The Ptarmigan and Coire na Ciste Tbars still offer reliable snow holding for 1.1km runs and 175m of vertical, for three or four months every year.
A ‘Ptarmigan ski club’ would be financed my it’s memberships and the tbars, pistes and maintenance would be managed and operated by its Members, organised by its committee. Members would walk up in skis or boots but would have the option to leave their equipment up at the tows.
This would be a similar governance model to the successful and long established LakeDistrict Ski Club where Members from across Northern England are prepared to walk up for an hour to enjoy their sport and contribute to the club. The LDSC even has a waiting list for new Members !
Perhaps the Ptarmigan building itself (1190m) could be re purposed as an overnight wardened hut for mountaineers and skiers ? That would be unique in Scotland and would likely bring in year round revenue to at least cover its maintenance.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 12-04-24 20:03; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The last time I walked up Cairngorm was June 21, and it was brutal. Not sure I'd make it in ski boots.
Just doing the walk to the summit from the funicular in winter is bad enough.
Would indeed be a hard core club.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Peter S, I can manage the walk up to Yad; just
Used to do the Cairngorm car park to the climbing Corries in winter: that was bad enough in mountaineering boots + rucksack & ropes.
Still, if the fit lot, and tourers, would all arrange to go to the wonderful snows of upper Cairngorm mountain henceforth, and the unfit, disabled, medically-challenged, too young and too old are left to have to suffer the slings and arrows of Glencoe instead... Yeah, I could cope
@Grizzler,
But if you can leave your skis and boots up the hill that will make it easier
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Peter S, not when I live more than a few wee miles away, and might possibly occasionally require them for other places, too...
Tell you what, though: build a large self-catering and full board resort hotel at the top or base of Ptarmigan bowl, and offer a pick-up service (using snowcat or piste basher + trailer) from Glenmore or Aviemore for customers and their luggage. That could be worth a punt, Scottish weather permitting...
Or just forget the funicular and put a chairlift in from the car park to the reliable snowline and drag lifts.
Or just run uplift using snowcats, piste bashers, trailers, ponies, reindeer...
That's the only chairlift I've seen where the chairs face sideways - which must have made getting on and off a bit more tricky! And was there a safety bar?
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Quote:
And was there a safety bar?
Yes, there was. I seem to remember getting on and off was ok. Huge queues though and top lift often closed due to the wind.
I used to love going to the Gorm when we had such a thing as snow. The Funicular is a scandalous waste of public funds and an environmental eyesore to boot. Couldn't believe my sorry eyes last time I went up there. Years ago I saw a plan that involved a new car park at Glenmore, a two stage gondola up from there to the Day Lodge and then on to Coire Cas, new White Lady chair and I think new uplift for the Ciste side too. I think they even proposed reopening an old rail line from Aviemore to Glenmore. It would have cost a fraction of what has been 'spaffed up the wall', to quote Boris and it would have been a bit like Snowdon in the Summer. Time to round up those responsible.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Think the original First (Grindelwald) lift was a side on chair. @ecureuil, I shall check on this.
There must be pictures somewhere .
Yes I believe the First chair was a three stage detachable sideways chair of the same type as Cairngorm. I think the manufacturer was Maag of Zurich.
The Cairngorm chair was originally set up in two stages from just above the car park in Corrie Cas through the Sheiling where your chair was pushed through a rail system onto the second stage (White Lady) up to the Ptarmigan cafe. A detachable chair was the latest word in 1961 and yes there was a safety bar !
In about 1980 the second stage was moved onto the roof of the Sheiling chairlift building to avoid getting buried by snow blowing down the White Lady. Unfortunately that meant having to unload and then climb some steps and get onto a second chair.
This video shows the second stage of the l chair moved onto the roof at the Sheiling at 0.28secs. Prior to 1980 your chair detached onto a rail system through the building with the square windows, and then back up the hill.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well, OK, maybe it might require a tad of 'modernisation'
Thinking about it - inspired by the shop window toy set display in the Kaprun shopping centre, if anyone knows it - all they've got to do is bung up a few big pylons, weld some brackets to each of the funicular cars and, Bob's your Uncle, two nice big cable cars
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ecureuil wrote:
That's the only chairlift I've seen where the chairs face sideways - which must have made getting on and off a bit more tricky! And was there a safety bar?
It was a detachable chairlift and the chairs came to a complete stop for loading and unloading.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
If the funicular is not fixable then that opens up options for the reuse of the Ptarmigan building (1090m asl). One possibility might be to convert it to a Mountain Hut for short stay overnight accommodation.
It’s a big building at over 2000m2 and is relatively modern (1999/2000) with a mains power supply, water and a treatment system. It should easily be big enough for at least 40 bedspaces. Page 39 of this earlier extension proposal includes the existing floor plan https://www.winterhighland.info/cairngorm/CairnGormMP-Bundle1.pdf
A Mountain Hut in this location could be available for year round use by mountaineers, skiers and hillwalkers approaching on foot and carrying all their own gear. Having to walk up 2.3 km and 490m on an exposed mountain side in the highlands will tend to filter out the ‘Neds’. It would however still need to be well managed by a team of hut wardens but in doing so would offer unique recreational opportunities for closer access to nature and the wilderness of the high Cairngorms. It would help deliver one of the main purposes of the National Park which is the enjoyment and understanding of the areas special qualities by the public (visitors and the local community). Indeed a community interest company might be best placed to manage it because that is likely to have access to the right skills and necessary contacts.
With the closure of the funicular the Ptarmingan has been largely disused for years with no revenue to pay for its maintenance or the management of the surrounding area. Adapting it for a new longterm use would bring in a year round income to pay for its upkeep.
Planning permission would be needed for the change of use and no doubt there would be questions around the potential impact on the nearby Cairngorms National Nature Reserve and probably risks around mountain safety. These would however need to be weighed appropriately with the last use of the building and should be capable of mitigation?
A new use for overnight accommodation need not have a significant effect on the integrity of the NNR. The current building is designed to accommodate 3,000 people per day, mostly arriving in the funicular. Conversion to a Mountain hut would be a more intensive visitor use but the numbers will be many times fewer, without the funicular. The overall impact on the building and the surrounding environment should therefore be much lower overall.
Unlike the users of the funicular, visitors walking up are not restricted from leaving the building which may raise issues about trampling of the surrounding environment. The numbers however will still be very small and probably fewer than when the original chairlift was running. Also it would need to be recognised that the Ptarmigan has long been connected to Corrie Cas by a land rover track as well as other marked trails and footpaths so the infrastructure already exists to accommodate walkers. Indeed one of the benefits of creating a mountain hut is to encourage active travel and the public health and wellbeing that walking and social interaction will bring.
Conversion would therefore seem to provide a sustainable option for a unique resource that is otherwise redundant and deteriorating in the harsh mountain climate. Conversion would not require any significant external changes and the new use would be entirely reversible. Nor would it impact on the resident community of Speyside and would likely bring additional spending and heightened awareness of the area. Since it would be unique in Scotland it would likely attract some wider niche interest from the rest of the UK and perhaps further afield.
There would be plenty of space for a dedicated snowsports club room (sitting area/ dormitory/kitchen ski store) to support ‘futureproof’ downhill skiing in the Ptarmigan bowl and the building would be big enough to provide space for other associated uses such as an advanced base for mountain rescue, outdoor training and scientific research.
To make the financial side work the building would have to be leased from HiE for a peppercorn rent, probably with an agreement that it will be well maintained and that any excess income is used for enhancement of the surrounding environment.
Planning permission might initially be limited to a temporary period of say 5 years. That would tend to keep initial conversion costs low and enable the feasibility and impact to be tested before the use became permanent. The number of bedspaces could be limited by planning condition and a minimum level of management could be required. Overnight stays could be managed through a membership scheme or affiliated arrangement, if desirable.
Non of this will happen of course because HiE are determined to get the funicular running again, whatever the cost, but it is perhaps interesting to ponder an alternative use.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 14-04-24 8:01; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
All of the above sounds great, however the blatant refusal to allow people to walk around outside at the top of the mountain is the biggest factor why Cairngorm will fail. Until this mindset is altered, it doesn’t matter what infrastructure you install and implement.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Rick, the restriction applied to people arriving by funicular. The concern was the potential impact on the NNR of 3000 people a day concentrated into a small area. With the funicular closed there is a right of access everywhere at Cairngorm for walkers and skiers.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Peter S, well you learn something new everyday! Another bonus of no funicular everyone has to walk and everyone can explore.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Peter S wrote:
If the funicular is not fixable then that opens up options for the reuse of the Ptarmigan building (1090m asl). One possibility might be to convert it to a Mountain Hut for short stay overnight accommodation.
To be honest the Base Station would be more useful for this than the Ptarmigan, a big segment of potential custom would be winter climbers looking for an early start without potential road closures and the majority will be heading West along the Northern Corries footpath from the the Daylodge level. Turning the tunnel into a groomer wide trough to link the top of the White Lady would be very useful too!
Given HIE and the contractors’ track record of overpromising and underdelivering (well, outright lying in HIE’s case), it could well have carried its last passenger.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Would the carriages float, CalMac might be interested.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I climbed Ben Macdui and Cairngorm at the end of last summer (when the funicular was briefly running again). Judging from the volume of people at the top of Cairngorm when I walked over from Macdui there is no way they are actually preventing funicular passengers from leaving the top station to get onto the plateau. Would say numbers at the top of Cairngorm were in 3 figures (including a kid on top of the cairn throwing rocks off) and many who were in footwear I think it would've been almost impossible to walk up from the car park in.
Dozens more had walked down to look into the corries towards Macdui as well.
After all it is free
After all it is free
damanpunk wrote:
This circus needs to end!
Send in the clowns.....
....Don't bother, they're here ( and have been for a long time, in the shape of HIE)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It's incredibly sad what's happened with it, when I was in my young snowboarding years (late 90s) going to the Cairngorm was a real treat from our usual choice of the Lecht.
It must be soul destroying for the other resort owners (well, other than Nevis) to watch this poo-poo show continue while they have to try and sort their own investment.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For Cairngorm to regain its role as a mass participation ski area it sounds as though quite a lot more money is going to have to be spent, either to get the funicular back working or to construct a Chairlift to access the the Ptarmigan bowl.
If that money is not forthcoming then winter sports at Cairngorm will be entirely dependent on the remaining functional drag lifts. That would mean access on foot to the most snowsure runs in the Ptarmigan bowl, when there is insufficient snow to reach it with the M1 Poma.
With seemingly ever diminishing snow cover lower down the hill the skiing use might become limited to a niche operation targeting ski tourers and those prepared to walk up.
With fewer ski days and many fewer skiers Cairngorm would need to reduce its costs and perhaps revert back to a more volunteer led operation maintaining only a few key tows.
Even that would depend on HIE making the viable parts of the remaining infrastructure available for free to a new operator.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
