I believe there is a route off right (looking up) from the Grand Montets at Argentiere called Pas de Chevre (I think?), and I was wondering if anyone had done this as looking to become a bit more adventurous (oo err!) in my pff-piste excursions.. Main questions are how steep is it (I'm ok up to 40deg (just) as long as not narrow gully stuff. Also where does it come out at bottom - I'm assuming somewhere on the lower Mer de Glace, but is it say opposinte the Montenver railway exit as for Valle Balche? Any info gratefully lapped up !!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Brian1001, welcome to Snowheads.
There are a few variants for the start of the Pas de Chevre (ie Goats' Path) - some very steep, some only quite steep. You should certainly be fine for the main way down.
However, below the steep part the slope opens up to a huge width and near the bottom you come to a small cliff that really only has one way through. Unless you have a long rope you will be b*ggered if you are in the wrong place (We once had to call a helicopter to rescue some people we spotted who had done that at the end of the day).
Even the way through is tricky and it helps to have a rope, depending on snow conditions (see
Tumble and Fall on Pas de Chevre, Chamonix from Peter Platan
this video)
I would advise that you go with a guide - especially if you are not expert in avalanche danger.
You come out either roughly opposite the lift up to the railway or a little lower, in which case you follow the other way for finishing the Vallee Blanche, which is skiing further down the glacier and then a walk up a path along the side of the valley cut by the glacier to a hut, from which (if the snow is good enough) you can ski all the way down to Chamonix - mostly on a switch-back road and finishing up on the nursery slope.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 19-11-12 11:57; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Welcome to s Brian1001.
What snowball says.
I've not skied it yet (am planning on doing it this season if conditions are good), but was told by a guide last year that route-finding the one and only exit is very hard (even if you've done it before) and, as a consequence, most of the local guides use a GPS to find the entrance.
Brian1001, Hi there, Pas de Chevre is indeed a spectacular place to ski and worth adding to the tick list. I know of five main variations and some of these also have many of their own variations. The 3 main routes found in the guide books are the two Pas de Chevre routes and the Rectiligne. For a more sporting variation you could try the Couloir Poubelles from the GM and their's another very narrow couloir 2m wide. I've skied fresh tracks the entire length of the main 'Pas de Chevre' route, and yes that was one of my best days. A mate of mine used to ski it as a fast way from the GM into town and back to work, that said it still can be very dangerous. Avalanches, crevasses, route finding and the exit couloir are all an issue depending on the route. Regarding the exit, their used to be a handful of ways down depending on the conditions, the main Pas de Chevre is great, the Rectiligne Couloir narrower but a better option generally as it gives you more options and gets you further skiers left so it's easier to get to the exit couloir. The guide book says that to find the skiers left exit couloir you must look for a gnarly old tree, I never found the tree and I've had some interesting variations on the exit couloir but thats skiing for you!
For your first attempt I'd ski the main Pas de Chevre, you'll get a real sense of what it's all about and the chance to scope out the variants.
Hope you get to ski it!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The three main variations mentioned above are the popular descents. The Poubelle Couloir, which descends from fenced area at the top of the Bochard is also an option but often requires an abseil in.
Like the Vallee Blanche, The Pas de Chevre is technically straightforward (with the exception of the Rectiligne which is steep and narrow at the top, and the requires a leftwards exit above a rock band) but I'd not recommend skiing it unless you are happy with skiing glaciated terrain with avalanche danger. If you have some 'mountain sense' and the required gear then it's a superb run when in condition. It often gets skiied late in the day, so if you head down it in the morning you can encounter re-frozen tracks which are hard work, and if you ski it in the afternoon there can be a risk of slides.
It's worth buying Anselme Baud's book if you're interested as it has good photo topos, and is a fascinating read even if you never ski any of the routes!
As far as routefinding goes, as you ski out the bottom of (either) of the gullies you begin to track leftwards as you head down through the trees. It's easiest to follow tracks, and if there are none then it may be for a reason! If you track down and left to some twisted evergreen trees there is a short (~10m) abseil down an icefall. Just (skiers) right there is another abseil over icefalls which can be sometimes skiied/sidestepped depending on snow cover. I believe if you carry on straight down (rather than trending left) there is another way to gain the level below. Once on this level you traverse (skiers) left past a couple of chutes until you find a small bunch of saplings and a couliour which leads down to the Mer de Glace just opposite Montenvers. It's easiest to scope out the exit from Montenvers if you previously intend to ski the VB. I have skiied the exit many times and never had a problem finding the route (GPS never necessary), although I'm not sure I'd want to do it in cloud or poor visibility.
If you are looking for other off-piste descents in the area you could also consider the Chapeau Couliour from the Bochard. Follow the edge of the ski area hard left down from the Bochard until past the rocky cliffs, and step up 15m to a col. Over the other side of this a W/SW facing couloir descends down to Lavancher. Remember to break left once down the main section to avoid an icefall just above where it meets the cat-track/summer hiking paths.
That's an unexpected translation... I'd have though it mean something a lot closer to "no goats", though I don't know whether it would be a descriptive term or an imperative instruction.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pas is French for step (ie footstep or dance step) or stride. (you may have heard the French expression a "pas de deux" meaning a dance duet, or a "faux pas" or false step : ie a social blunder). The word is regularly transferred to a place where you take steps - ie a footpath or trail (pas des Huguenots), or even some other sort of passage ie a (mountain) pass or a strait (eg the Pas de Calais).
Serriadh, you are very far from alone: last year someone asked me "Why is it called 'Not the Cheese'?"
After all it is free
After all it is free
Thanks all for the informative replies, including french translations for "Pas" - when i think about it there's also "mauvais pas" which I believe is bad step.. Anyway info on Pas de Chevre is v useful, though descriptions of narrow/steep ish gullies may be slightly worrying for me, but not averse to taking rope/harness along for ab'ing as familiar with summer alpinism..
Hoping to get out to Cham for perhaps a long weekend before Christmas if decent snow dump in time
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
snowball wrote:
Serriadh, you are very far from alone: last year someone asked me "Why is it called 'Not the Cheese'?"
excellent!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
aly wrote:
The three main variations mentioned above are the popular descents. The Poubelle Couloir, which descends from fenced area at the top of the Bochard is also an option but often requires an abseil in.
Chamcham, nice vid, is it from the top of your head?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Brian1001, If you take a guide they will have a rope, if needed. The main way down is just a steep run, nothing like the Poubelle (which I've never skied). It has been a long time since I skied at Chamonix - except once with a Ski Club of GB group which weren't up to steep skiing. I really must go back in 2014 (2013 is all booked).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Indeed, I saw it was looking in good condition this year, it was nothing like that in 2010 although I like the video. I can remember having to ski all the way back down Pierre a Ric to get a longer rope from the car to get over the rocks. It was worth it though, as we got to put fresh tracks in deep snow right the way down to Montenvers, as the top station had been closed for several days so nobody had been down the goat track.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mosha Marc wrote:
Chamcham, nice vid, is it from the top of your head?
Sadly not - he looks 20 years younger and 20 years faster.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Chamcham wrote:
Mosha Marc wrote:
Chamcham, nice vid, is it from the top of your head?
Sadly not - he looks 20 years younger and 20 years faster.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Poubelle - oo err, bit (totally) beyond me.. . but can you Ab down the really serious narrow bits ro do you have to ski it..?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Brian1001,
Yes, you can abseil the serious bits, but actually, if it's totally beyond you, the main problem is the exposure. If you fall on the steep bit, it will be a long time before you stop. Why not try something easier, which you'll enjoy, and which will build your confidence and skill, before trying Poubelle?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chamcham wrote:
Brian1001,
Yes, you can abseil the serious bits, but actually, if it's totally beyond you, the main problem is the exposure. If you fall on the steep bit, it will be a long time before you stop. Why not try something easier, which you'll enjoy, and which will build your confidence and skill, before trying Poubelle?
Brian1001, I've done the right hand (easiest) route and the central route. It's steep but not too ridiculous. The central route was short of snow when we did it and we had to do an extra short ab in the middle over some rock slabs, the clag came in at the bottom and the GPS was very handy to find the exit gullies after the left traverse at the bottom. A second ab was needed here but only short.
Did it again last year and the snow was hard, people say do it in the pm as it softens up in the sun. There was a lot of snow this time and at the bottom there were tracks (I know, I know) going straight down a gully so no leftward traverse needed. We did need a 20m ab and as my ski rope was 30m I ended up leaving it behind and was pleased to see another two parties use it.
It's a fantastic route with stunning views of the Dru, but don't underestimate it it way more difficult than the VB.
Haven't done the poubelle but while you can ab the top normally with a big audience, the crux is the twist in the centre where if you fall you are likely to hit rocks.
The Baud book is one of my all time fav book, it's now out of print but can be had on Amazon for £250-£300!
I only skied the main route and it has couple steep sections but not extremely so. If you are OK skiing 40 degrees slopes you will be fine. Exit is tricky so it's better to be with someone who knows the route well or at least study guide books. Take a rope.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A couple of photo from the PdC. The first is in the middle of the central route, the second the exit gullies.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Fantastic route, possibly the best lift served off piste run in the world that is within reach of competent amateur holiday skiers (with a guide). I have done the central couloir (on one ski) and rectiligne (left) couloir. First time we had enough snow to ski all the way down into the valley floor in chamonix. Don't underestimate the exit gullies: an american 'expert' snowboarder slid about 100 meters towards mer de glace after she unclipped herself from the rope before putting her board on...school girl error. I have never seen anyone accelerate downhill so quickly before or since. Thankfully she was stopped by the vegetation and only suffered hand injuries, could have been much worse. Rectiligne is the steepest and has a short section of about 40 degrees so you should be ok. Other couloirs i think are 30-35 degree mark.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Chamcham wrote:
aly wrote:
The three main variations mentioned above are the popular descents. The Poubelle Couloir, which descends from fenced area at the top of the Bochard is also an option but often requires an abseil in.
Not always. Have a look at this:
Hmmm I had thought I might actually ski this once, not any more!
jbob wrote:
The Baud book is one of my all time fav book, it's now out of print but can be had on Amazon for £250-£300!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Again, thanks all for the useful and in some cases entertaining (scary) video clips of rather serious looking descent gullies, but on that subject given that the Poubelle is rather beyond me, what might constitute a sort of intermediate (+) descent gully in the Cham area to get a feel for this sort of thing, but without needing a heli evac booked in advance?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Better get a guide who can ski you skiing and he will know where to take you. You shouldn't need a heli evacuation from Pas de Chevre if you take the guide. Or get lessons but specify that you need off-piste or even interested in couloirs, so they will take you somewhere. There are shorter couloirs in Grands Montets area just above Plan Joran, but don't go by yourself and without someone knowing the area well to avoid evacuation or a prospect of ending up in a body bag. There are easier routes but missing the right turn may commit you to the route that is too difficult.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
For short steep couloirs got to Brevant area so in case of a fall you dont have far to go and are unlikely to come to (serious) harm. Then i would head to Petit Envers or Toula Glacier (from Italian side) as these are longer and more committed off piste routes but easier then Pas de Chevre. At that stage your guide will know what level you are and pick appropriate route for you ie as never summer, said.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Does anyone know who 'irish John' is in Chamcham's video of their descent of the la Pl oubelle couloir in Argentiere??
One year if we get the right conditions we have to do this beast. Myself and my main ski buddy are just borderline ready for this. Would there be another slightly easier (i.e potentially less fatal couloir) that we could uh use as an acid test before attempting it??
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
horgand wrote:
Does anyone know who 'irish John' is in Chamcham's video of their descent of the la Pl oubelle couloir in Argentiere??
One year if we get the right conditions we have to do this beast. Myself and my main ski buddy are just borderline ready for this. Would there be another slightly easier (i.e potentially less fatal couloir) that we could uh use as an acid test before attempting it??
Yes
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ha, ha very good!
would you mind elucidating me on which couloirs these might be?!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Does anyone have a photo from Montenveres with the exit gullies marked?
Does anyone know who 'irish John' is in Chamcham's video of their descent of the la Pl oubelle couloir in Argentiere??
One year if we get the right conditions we have to do this beast. Myself and my main ski buddy are just borderline ready for this. Would there be another slightly easier (i.e potentially less fatal couloir) that we could uh use as an acid test before attempting it??
aly, you need top put them on the Snow Media Zone (see Snow Base above) which you need to sign up for. Then click on the pic and use one of the url addresses below it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
OK, I'll try this first, then if that doesn't work then I'll try that way.
The link should be available to anyone, not just FB users.
These were taken in Feb/Mar 2010. The first photo shows the upper section down from GM via the Pas de Chevre gullies, and you can match it up with the landmarks in the second photo.
In the second photo:
A is the way through if you carry on straight down rather than tracking (skiers) left through the trees. Once you hit the traverse line under the cliffs you need to head hard left (bit of poling/shuffling?) to gain the exit couloir.
B shows the short icefall section where you can ab or step down depending on the conditions
C shows a short (10m abseil) off a couple of knarled old fir trees, which gets you to the bottom of the shute taken by B.
The exit couloir is shown, when I last did it you traverse left, until you are past the triangular patch of saplings, and then cut back on yourself to ski down the far side of the sapling patch. Exit onto the Mer de Glace is just below, cut skiers left out the bottom of the couloir to maintain a bit of height so you don't have to sidestep back up to the gondola.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 29-11-12 22:26; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
aly, those are two good photos. On the first if you look top left you can also see the poubelle. Just for he record I would not recommend the straight down option.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
!!
s 
. but can you Ab down the really serious narrow bits ro do you have to ski it..?
to see another two parties use it.
