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About Avalanche Airbags

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
An avalanche airbag is a safety device that is designed to protect skiers, snowboarders, and other backcountry enthusiasts from the dangers of being buried in an avalanche. When an avalanche occurs, the airbag is deployed by the user, causing it to inflate and create a large, buoyant air pocket around the user's upper body. This air pocket helps to keep the user near the surface of the snow, making it easier for them to be seen and rescued by other members of their party.

Avalanche airbags have been shown to be effective in reducing the risk of burial in an avalanche. In one study, the use of an avalanche airbag was found to reduce the risk of burial by over 90% compared to not using an airbag. This makes them an essential piece of safety equipment for anyone who spends time in the backcountry, particularly in areas where the risk of avalanches is high.

There are several different types of avalanche airbags on the market, each with its own unique features and benefits. Some airbags are designed to be worn as a backpack, while others are integrated into a ski or snowboard pack. Some airbags are filled with a gas, such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide, while others use a compressed air canister to inflate the airbag.

When choosing an avalanche airbag, it's important to consider the type of terrain and conditions you will be skiing or snowboarding in, as well as your personal preferences and needs. Some airbags are better suited to certain types of terrain or conditions, so it's important to do your research and choose an airbag that is right for you.

In addition to choosing the right airbag, it's also important to be properly trained in the use of the airbag and to practice using it before heading out into the backcountry. Many manufacturers and retailers offer training courses or clinics that can teach you how to properly deploy your airbag in the event of an avalanche. It's also a good idea to practice deploying your airbag in a safe and controlled environment, so that you are prepared to use it in an emergency situation.

Overall, avalanche airbags are an important safety tool for anyone who spends time in the backcountry. By providing a large, buoyant air pocket around the user's upper body, they can greatly reduce the risk of burial in an avalanche and increase the chances of being rescued quickly. By choosing the right airbag and taking the time to learn how to use it properly, you can help to keep yourself safe when skiing or snowboarding in the backcountry.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Very strange post there @davidof, and I seem to recall that you never had one*, and maybe in the past may even have looked down your nose at them in previous posts, have you now seen the light?

Yesterday we opted not to take them, but in the end we wish we had as there was a lot of strange stuff happening and a lot of activity, and everywhere seemed very unstable. It's amazing how when conditions are like that, and without it you get very paranoid, a feeling of being exposed etc!

I'm going back up on my own this morning up to the Laurichard sector, and will take it along with the In-Reach, but no dog as he was very bolloxed yesterday in the deep snow ( see ski touring thread)



*apologies if I'm wrong?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Bit random!
Looks/reads as cut+paste to me. So do some other recent @davidof, posts. Theres another in the Andorra thread for instance.
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I think @davidof is playing with one of the AI chat engines. A few recent posts read very like the output from GPT.
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He's been absorbed into the machine.
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how effective are avalanche airbags?

Avalanche airbags are designed to help protect skiers, snowboarders, and other backcountry enthusiasts from being buried in an avalanche. When deployed, these airbags inflate to create a large, spherical shape around the user's head and torso, which can help them float to the top of the avalanche debris and make it easier for rescuers to locate them. Studies have shown that avalanche airbags can be effective in reducing the likelihood of burial in an avalanche, and they can also help reduce the severity of injuries if burial does occur. However, it's important to note that avalanche airbags are not a substitute for other safety measures, such as carrying appropriate rescue equipment and knowing how to use it, avoiding avalanche-prone terrain, and checking local avalanche forecasts before heading out into the backcountry.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
should I carry an avalanche airbag or beacon?

It's always a good idea to carry both an avalanche airbag and a beacon when traveling in avalanche terrain. An avalanche airbag can help prevent you from being buried in an avalanche, while a beacon can help rescue teams locate you if you are buried. Additionally, it's important to have the proper training and knowledge on how to use both of these devices.
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@davidof, can you ask the AI whether I should wear a helmet?
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@davidof, What make/ model do you suggest? You clearly are the font of all knowledge when it comes to cut and paste, you're bound to be the best source of information when it comes to advice on the best one to buy....
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@under a new name, maybe a different thread?
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It is difficult to say which avalanche airbag is the best, as different airbags may be better suited for different people and situations. It is important to choose an avalanche airbag that is well-reviewed and suits your needs, such as the size and weight of the airbag, the type of deployment system, and the overall design and features. It is also important to consider the brand and its reputation, as well as the price and any additional features or accessories that may be included. Ultimately, the best avalanche airbag for you will depend on your personal preferences and needs.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@davidof, is wearing an airbag a political act? If so, what does not wearing one say about you?
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
If GPT can write stuff this good, can it get itself elected to the Board of the SCGB?
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You know it makes sense.
We will exterminate, we will exterminate!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Weathercam wrote:
Very strange post there @davidof, and I seem to recall that you never had one*, and maybe in the past may even have looked down your nose at them in previous posts, have you now seen the light?

*apologies if I'm wrong?




I've used the search function to extract what I've said about airbags in the past 20 years:-

Quote:

I think overconfident airbag users who probably wouldn't be doing what they are doing without an airbag.
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Don't be overconfident in your airbag if you have one.
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At the point where i turned back on Thursday there is a big 200 meter climb up a huge open slope. A couple of guys passed me "unclip your trigger, if this goes, it goes big and you'll need your airbag". I like the gung-ho attitude. The rucksacks looked new. I decided not to hang around to see if it was "going big" although I don't think the danger was huge - although someone got a whoumph on the more windloaded side of the slope, he turned back.
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A few years ago I crossed a guy I know, he was climbing on touring skis with his son following. "I see you have an avalanche backpack now?" I asked, "but not your son?"

"Yeah, I couldn't afford two, so I take it and test ski the slope first then the boy follows me down".

Hmmm, not completely stupid, it is what guides do but personally I would do the opposite. I would test ski the slope without the backpack which I would have given to my son who would follow me down.
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The ABS people suggested a "97.3%" survival rate for airbag users in their marketing. It is true, but gives people the wrong impression.

It is generally accepted that, if people do not change their habits (ie taking on more risk) then around half of fatalities would be saved by 100% airbag use.

It is a tool that works best on open slopes, above the treeline on typical risk 3 days. Very good for off piste skiers skiing typical powder days in Alpine terrain.

As the airbag keeps you on the surface of the snow then in features such as cliff bands, woods, glades you can be carried into or over obstacles, faster, then you would without an airbag. Where there are terrain traps or the slide is large (typical on risk 4 days) the system can be overwhelmed.
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Your Airbag is of limited value if you are caught in a wet snow avalanche as the process of inverse segregation doesn't work well.
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I was amazed by the number of people using pin bindings on piste... and wearing airbags. As if their airbag would help them if they got steam rollered by a 1000 tons of spring snow.
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Remember at least 3 dead in France so far this season with airbags. Having an airbag and then doing really stupid stuff is not decreasing your risk of dying, quite the opposite.
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Airbags, although it was a big slide with terrain trap (as mentioned by others above) and if you are skiing a dangerous slope just because you have an airbag you are probably making a serious error of judgement.
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My take is that if you get caught in an avalanche that is big enough to bury you, then an ABS is the most important safety device you can have. Even with risk homeostatis I still think an airbags will reduce overall avalanche deaths.
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Speaking to ABS users it is clear that some do not understand the technology, they buy the rucksack because they really don't really know much about what they are doing and don't understand the limits or even how it is used. Witness the deaths from misuse. Or the guy I crossed last year, who had never tested his rucksack and when he needed it, it didn't work due to some manufacturing error. This skier has been going into high risk terrain because he had an airbag (he would be classed as an experienced user in the avalanche stats too).

If the OP is planning on doing a lot of off piste with groups largely composed of ABS users, then at least rent an airbag, no point being negatively impacted by their decision making.

Disclaimer: I'm not personally an airbag user. In a normal season I'm probably doing around 50-60 days skiing/ski touring. Now given that I could ski all winter you can surmise I don't go out on days that I consider it too risky.
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Following up on what I said, the two recent Valais victims were both wearing airbags. One killed colliding with trees, one lost his airbag - not properly strapped on. The St Columbans victim in France earlier in January was in a big slide, probably with thin early season snowpack and probably died in collision with obstacles. It is something I've been saying for a long time now, an ABS is good in risk 2, normal risk 3 conditions in open terrain. Not so good on high risk 3, risk 4 days and in trees, rocky terrain. A lot of people are using airbags to take on too much risk and are outweighing the device's capabilities.
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The slide he was caught in would have been exactly the kind of thing where an airbag would have been ideal.
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This is the type of avalanche that would be survivable with an airbag, maybe if he'd been with a friend who could have rescued him sooner than the piste services, although better route choice could have avoided the slide altogether.
a guy I know got caught the other day, pulled his avalanche airbag handle and.... nothing. He wasn't very impressed to have lugged something around all winter on his tours that didn't actually work. Not only that but when I talked to him earlier in the year about some of the riskier stuff he was doing he said "no worries, got my airbag".
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Airbags work really well on open slopes without obstacles with runouts in typical risk 3 or lower days. That is medium size avalanches. That's what a lot of people are skiing so that is good but as Haegli says, the margin between being safer with an airbag and putting yourself into more danger is fairly thin so they have to be used intelligently.

Oh if you have deployed an airbag you've already made a big mistake.
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The airbag would have kept her nearer the surface, even in that smaller slide, that may have carried her into the terrain trap leading to her burial. She may not have even been buried without the airbag. In this particular case. No-one knows. Airbags in forests and areas above terrain traps can do more harm than good, in the case of wooded terrain you get taken further and faster through trees, which is not nice.
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At risk 4 you can expect big avalanches that will kill you, perhaps even if you have an airbag. At risk 3 you can expect medium avalanches that will kill you. You have more chance of surviving with an airbag and if completely buried maybe an evens chance of your mates finding you alive if you are wearing a beacon.
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If I could only take a single piece of kit off piste (like Desert Island Discs) I would take an airbag but remember 5 deaths in 2010 in the French Alps were airbag wearers.
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The one device that could make a difference is the ABS system which keeps you on the surface of a slide. It won't prevent you being injured due to trees, rocks or cliffs. But this device is around 500 to 700 euros depending on the model so you have to make a cost benefit analysis. For the piste patrol at l'Espace Killy who are using the system this year I can see the benefit, they are exposing themselves to risk on a daily basis but for occassionaly skiers there are maybe other measures that are more cost effective.



Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 6-12-22 16:17; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
For a long time I have been surprised that guides and trainers (eg on SCGB mountain training) say shovel/transceiver/probe are essential but an ABS airbag is optional (in the early days, c 2009, they implied if you really are obsessive) ... yet the stats don't support this.
EVEN if you have all three 'find and dig out' tools, and all of your group is similarly equipped and knows how to use them, you have only a 50% chance of being rescued alive if you are fully buried.
That is scary
To me that says, this kit is over rated - you MUST do all you can to avoid getting buried. Sure carry them, but don't expect them to save your life.
Whereas if the airbag is deployed (it seems a significant number of times they are worn but not successfully deployed) it will reduce the chances of being buried by 90%
That makes the Airbag a FAR more important safety aid, especially since most people are not well trained in rescue.
However, you would be foolish to think getting caught in an avalanche is OK - with or without kit.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Trauma kills many people in avalanches, not just asphyxiation.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skithesteelstealtheski wrote:
Trauma kills many people in avalanches, not just asphyxiation.
Yes - I understand the record for airbags on trauma is very good too - its keeps you up higher and away from the tumble dryer.
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@davidof, but as you admit unless things have changed, you don't actually have one?

Disclaimer: I'm not personally an airbag user. In a normal season I'm probably doing around 50-60 days skiing/ski touring. Now given that I could ski all winter you can surmise I don't go out on days that I consider it too risky.

50-60 days anyone would think you're a geezonaire with those stats Laughing

I personally am not a great fan because of the weight, I tend not to use them in the Spring, as much as I do in the winter, but today I felt a lot better with it.

I also can lay claim to being caught in a slide, witnessed by a couple of snowheads, ending upside down caught by a tree, loosing skis etc (could have been very bad in hindsight) and did not have time to pull the feckin thing!

In fact soon as we get enough snow, as I've said for two seasons now, in the field next to us, me and the OH are going to do head over heels and try to pull the handle at some point in the process.
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@Weathercam, just let me know when and I'll film it Laughing
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Weathercam wrote:

50-60 days anyone would think you're a geezonaire with those stats Laughing


80 days last season includng cross country.

No I don't have an airbag but as you can see, that didn't stop me advocating for them.
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@davidof, yes did see on Strava all your XC.

But as for true off-piste* and actual ski-touring that looked very minimal, especially last season?

Maybe you'll now say that you don't upload all your best days, wanting to keep your routes secret Laughing

*Back-country etc needing to carry at least the basic kit
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Wearing an avi bag means I have the chance of not being buried and freeing myself and so able to try to locate and dig out other victims who had no avi bag
Then tell them “told you”!!!
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I don't usually argue with Davidof, as he invariably speaks from experience. However, one line in his extract I'd challenge:

Oh if you have deployed an airbag you've already made a big mistake.

Having had to use one for real, on a trip with guide (see the pinned post at the top of the offpiste thread), there was little alternative on the day, in terms of alternative route, or bailing out once we'd observed other avalanche activity.

however, it's a small point, and the others on 'risk adaptation' dwarf it.
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pisteoff wrote:
For a long time I have been surprised that guides and trainers (eg on SCGB mountain training) say shovel/transceiver/probe are essential but an ABS airbag is optional (in the early days, c 2009, they implied if you really are obsessive) ... yet the stats don't support this.
EVEN if you have all three 'find and dig out' tools, and all of your group is similarly equipped and knows how to use them, you have only a 50% chance of being rescued alive if you are fully buried.
That is scary
To me that says, this kit is over rated - you MUST do all you can to avoid getting buried. Sure carry them, but don't expect them to save your life.
Whereas if the airbag is deployed (it seems a significant number of times they are worn but not successfully deployed) it will reduce the chances of being buried by 90%
That makes the Airbag a FAR more important safety aid, especially since most people are not well trained in rescue.
However, you would be foolish to think getting caught in an avalanche is OK - with or without kit.


Good post!

I guess, once officially deemed recommended, they would be de facto mandatory in professional circumstances. That's what they are trying to prevent. Like with GPS.
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For those with an interest in this thread I would direct you to the piece @davidof, has put on pistehors regarding the apparent failure of the balloon. The bag being found a distance from the wearer. Further food for thought.
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Rogerdodger wrote:
For those with an interest in this thread I would direct you to the piece @davidof, has put on pistehors regarding the apparent failure of the balloon. The bag being found a distance from the wearer. Further food for thought.


Having skied with a Swiss guide who was avalanched and couldn’t reach the handle to pull because his chest strap was undone, I think that article is too short on the background facts for me to conclude that it was purely equipment failure. .

What I find surprising is that airbag users do not take the opportunity to practice pulling the handle frequently enough - all bags I have owned have a “dry” pull practice mechanism and obviously the e-bags can give you a full taste . In Skydiving, practice pulls for cutting away fouled canopies and deploying reserves are done frequently and systems double checked before each jump. If you have deployed your handle you should be touching it frequently and anticipating that you might have to locate it 6 inches or higher in a slide.

Stay safe everyone !
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Weathercam wrote:
@davidof, yes did see on Strava all your XC.

But as for true off-piste* and actual ski-touring that looked very minimal, especially last season?

Maybe you'll now say that you don't upload all your best days, wanting to keep your routes secret Laughing

*Back-country etc needing to carry at least the basic kit


Best backcountry practice is that smartwatches interfere with transceiver send signals, especially if the Transceiver is worn centre chest and your hands are forming a protective shield around your face.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@mishmash, good point - we all think about phones (well, most of us) now...a reason I carry my beep on the leg not the torso.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Did anyone actually read this?
Quote:

Some airbags are designed to be worn as a backpack, while others are integrated into a ski or snowboard pack

They are ALL designed to be worn as a backpack.
Quote:

Some airbags are filled with a gas, such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide, while others use a compressed air canister to inflate the airbag.

Compressed air IS a gas. Both capacitor and battery packs use fans.
Quote:

When choosing an avalanche airbag, it's important to consider the type of terrain and conditions you will be skiing or snowboarding in, as well as your personal preferences and needs. Some airbags are better suited to certain types of terrain or conditions, so it's important to do your research and choose an airbag that is right for you.

Do you REALLY think that anyone is going to go "Oooh, no, not today, I've only got my ABS, not my Scott, backpack?"
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Some airbags are better suited to certain types of terrain or conditions
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

Some airbags

Other airbags aren't?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sharkymark wrote:
@mishmash, good point - we all think about phones (well, most of us) now...a reason I carry my beep on the leg not the torso.


Fair enough but I’m also reading that it’s meant to be pocket with welded seams etc as there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. I have a pair of black diamond soft shell pants specially deigned with a piers cord attachment for example.
Also seen some guides suggesting Faraday bags for phones as well …

My usual carry is phone in right leg pocket, bleep left of Centre in harness. Got a shiny new Norrona jacket with a Velcro opening to get straight to the transceiver!
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mishmash wrote:
... there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. ..
Can you post links to the incidents you're referring to please?

That sounds like nonsense to me, but I'm happy to learn what you know.
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mishmash wrote:
Sharkymark wrote:
@mishmash, good point - we all think about phones (well, most of us) now...a reason I carry my beep on the leg not the torso.


Fair enough but I’m also reading that it’s meant to be pocket with welded seams etc as there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. I have a pair of black diamond soft shell pants specially deigned with a piers cord attachment for example.
Also seen some guides suggesting Faraday bags for phones as well …

My usual carry is phone in right leg pocket, bleep left of Centre in harness. Got a shiny new Norrona jacket with a Velcro opening to get straight to the transceiver!


Yeah I do make sure it’s in a well constructed pocket with sewn in clip. I’m trying to ignore what you said about the Norrona shell; mine is fine, I’d don’t need a new one, mine is fine, I don’t need a new one…
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phil_w wrote:
mishmash wrote:
... there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. ..
Can you post links to the incidents you're referring to please?

That sounds like nonsense to me, but I'm happy to learn what you know.


https://backcountryaccess.com/en-gb/blog/p/where-to-wear-your-avalanche-transceiver

Quote : “Last season, a skier on the Bugaboos to Roger Pass traverse took a ride in an avalanche. He pulled his airbag and was fortunately not buried, and he suffered only a minor knee injury. The skier was quite shaken up though and early the next morning he realized that his avalanche transceiver was missing. He had been carrying it in the side pocket of his ski pants and the avalanche had ripped the pocket and the transceiver was never located. They called for a helicopter and abandoned the rest of the traverse.

It has become fairly common for backcountry skiers and boarders to carry their transceiver in a pants pocket with the new outerwear styles and bib pants.

However, carrying your avalanche transceiver in your pants pocket should only be done if the pocket is designed accordingly: welded or stitched to the inside of the pants, with a solid, anchored clip for attaching the lanyard. If your pants pocket is sewn or welded to the outside of your pants and is clearly not designed for a transceiver, then we recommend that you carry it in the chest harness provided with your transceiver.”


https://www.wildsnow.com/29225/wear-beacon-in-pocket-vs-harness/

Note also carry advice from other Transceiver manufacturers.

Please note that I’m not anti-pocket carry as do so myself from time to time. Not sure why you think its nonsense though - that’s a strong emotional reaction to reasonable factual proposition. It doesn’t encourage considered debate.
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phil_w wrote:
mishmash wrote:
... there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. ..
Can you post links to the incidents you're referring to please?

That sounds like nonsense to me, but I'm happy to learn what you know.


I’ve read anecdotal accounts of clothing being torn from avi victims - NYT account of the Roger’s Pass (I think) incident for example. However, in that case the victim died and I suspect that if the slide is brutal enough to tear your ski pants off, the chances are it’s brutal enough to kill through trauma rather than suffocation, sadly. I guess it’s more likely for someone to leave a pocket open and a beacon could simply fall out!
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@mishmash, interesting stuff, thanks for posting!
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Sharkymark wrote:
mishmash wrote:
Sharkymark wrote:
@mishmash, good point - we all think about phones (well, most of us) now...a reason I carry my beep on the leg not the torso.


Fair enough but I’m also reading that it’s meant to be pocket with welded seams etc as there are some examples of the beep being ripped away entirely hence more focus on harness etc. I have a pair of black diamond soft shell pants specially deigned with a piers cord attachment for example.
Also seen some guides suggesting Faraday bags for phones as well …

My usual carry is phone in right leg pocket, bleep left of Centre in harness. Got a shiny new Norrona jacket with a Velcro opening to get straight to the transceiver!


Yeah I do make sure it’s in a well constructed pocket with sewn in clip. I’m trying to ignore what you said about the Norrona shell; mine is fine, I’d don’t need a new one, mine is fine, I don’t need a new one…


Got it in the online outlet as well!!!
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Sharkymark wrote:
I suspect that if the slide is brutal enough to tear your ski pants off, the chances are it’s brutal enough to kill through trauma rather than suffocation, sadly.


That was my takeaway also!
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