@phil_w, my loose understanding is that fully qualified (French) instructors can take clients off piste but if it's high mountain, glaciated terrain, you need to be with a high mountain guide. It's not something I've ever had to understand in depth.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@phil_w, take a look at the link I posted as there's a detailed IGN map that shows the gradient etc and you can see what was above them and then relate that to the video.
And yes Instructors can take clients off piste, ESF here run off-piste courses etc
They can't take clients on to glacier terrain, so can do La Grave, but not the glacier from P3
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The non French ‘avalanche community’ in Val are being very reserved on line, which is a little unusual. Draw your own conclusions.
@James the Last, I’ve just read the Telegraph Article - it is full of mistakes and translation errors a they couldn’t even get the name of the Mayor in Tignes right.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@GreenDay, I thought the avalanche was on the Manchet chair side, perhaps between the chair and VdI. The DT pic looks like that. The other side is the end of the Tour de Charvet and that nasty blue/red/black track which I can't recall.
@colinstone, That’s right. It was the Solaise side of the Manchet Valley between the Manchet Express Chair and the bottom of Epaule de Charvet and Santons.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BobinCH wrote:
Weathercam wrote:
Specific detail on the VD tragedy, suggests that maybe the slide was set off from above?
One of the biggest dangers, especially on powder frenzy days, is even if you think you know what you are doing and can pick a safe line down, you can’t control skiers and exposure from above. Sounds like they got buried in the terrain trap at the bottom. Airbag not going to help much for that.
That's true. You can't control other skiers off-piste and you don't know their level of off-piste experience and what equipment they have.
All you can really do is make sure people in your group are waiting in safe places and try to use common sense and communicate with other groups if possible (let a faster group go ahead if it makes sense and then both groups will be out of each other's way). But you can't really do much about some reckless skier dropping in from above at speed without stopping whilst your group is going one by one down a steep pitch.
After all it is free
After all it is free
James the Last wrote:
@skichampcouk, the bigger question is why do people consider it acceptable to ski off piste when the level is 3/5, “pronounced risk”. I have, we all do, but is it sane?
With the snowpack how it is I think the majority of the season will be 3 or 4.
There are tours I would do on a 4/5 day. Careful terrain selection is needed.
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If there's any danger that you could be killed by some muppet setting off a slide above you, why would you risk it?
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The IGN map blue circle puts the Solaise slide immediately below the notorious three gullies which makes perfect sense forit to have been triggered from above - from these gullies. The IGN map puts it opposite the exits of Santons and Epaule. Someone mentioned it was adjacent the base of the Manchet Express which is over the horizon ridge seen in the video. Was the slide (hatched in green) closer to the ridge with mellower terrain above? Can anyone on the ground help me with locating the slide more accurately?
Thank you @bolderz that’s right where data-avi.org puts it. I wonder if the same group had skied Banane, spied the unskied faces below the Marmottons and targeted them.
Anybody coming in from above could unintentionally remote trigger the whole of the face (and not even from “above” but way over to one side) - Chris’ photos show how many trigger points there were from above, propagating across the whole of the face.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Horrible video of it on that page. Not posting the direct link here. Shows exactly the location.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
In the video you can see a lot of tracks lookers left of where the avalanche was, and maybe 2 or 3 skiers coming across from either the gullies or further right, two of which just missed being hit by the slide.
The gullies look like they would be a very unwise place to be on a risky day? Or maybe they aren't that steep? Is there any possibility those caught had been on safer ground and were just traversing and got super unlucky?
That avalanche was so fast tranceiver kind of looks like it would only make finding your body easier.... awful stuff so sad for the families and the guide
Edit: actually it looks like there was no safer ground to the right so they must have been in the gullies, looks like 3 actually just got out of the same gullies before it swept through
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Another video taken further to the right. It's confusing, it looks like the gullys lookers right went first but then you can see two if not three large crowns on the slope above and to the left. Maybe this is what they mean by cascading avalanches. I wonder is it the remote triggering suggested as a risk in the avalanche bulletin. Some part went but then basically most of the slope across went.
The good news about this is that piste hors aka davidof is alive and well, at least I hope he's well. I'm sorry he doesn't seem to be posting on snowHeads any more.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@James the Last, this is what the numbers really mean: 1 - Grass, 2 - slush, 3 - everything is tracked out, 4 - if you weren't on first lifts/skinning up at four with a head torch, everything is tracked out, 5 - don't ski anywhere.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You know, old mountain goats always say that after a storm give it a day or two, then go play.
The problem is that companies don't care about lives, just profits. So the lifts must open to avoid payouts. We are just as guilty as we want to maximise our holiday time. But really we need to understand that the mountains are a very dangerous place. And we need to respect them. Powder frenzy is frightening particulraly after a storm.
@gixxerniknik, in my experience that’s completely incorrect. In terms of “companies”, their snow safety teams will make the call on whether things can open, and they will only make that call based on mitigating all risks - actively through control or passively - ie keep it closed until it stabilises.
There is zero tolerance for putting profit ahead of risk. I make these kinds of calls daily, and would never consider overriding a closed call for safety. I don’t want dead people on my conscience, and neither do my colleagues - all of whom are very highly trained professionals with a deep understanding of the terrain they manage.
The issue is often people going into closed or unsafe terrain, and making bad decisions.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
colinstone wrote:
@GreenDay, I thought the avalanche was on the Manchet chair side, perhaps between the chair and VdI. The DT pic looks like that. The other side is the end of the Tour de Charvet and that nasty blue/red/black track which I can't recall.
@8611, As I understand it (!) you are referring to propagation where one avalanche propagates round a bowl or rocky outcrop and creates more avalanches.
In terms of Cascade avalanches which is very pertinent at the moment - this happens where you have a few weak layers. The cascade is started by a skier triggering the first layer which in more benign times may just result in a sluff, this then creates enough force to trigger the next weak layer which (at the moment) could then trigger the murderous big layer buried towards the bottom of the snowpack. And then you have the full depth whole mountain departure.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@hang11, that's exactly right.
@gixxerniknik, your comments about companies, in my experience, is exactly wrong.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ok thanks. Think that one must have been remote triggering then as there are 3 large crowns in separate places across the upper slope? Although planet ski reported the area had slid earlier without catching anyone so maybe one was from then, but you can see successive chutes going. Just mad and indicative of what a bad idea it was to be there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
hang11 wrote:
... The issue is often people going into closed or unsafe terrain, and making bad decisions.
This.
--
Thanks for clarifying the precise location; I thought there was confusion there.
I'm still unclear: was the lift there was running or not? I'm just wondering if they'd made any of that face safe, and if the only exit was the valley?
In BC you'd not be allowed on those two pistes until the snow safety was done... but I'm thinking in Europe it may not work that way? But how does that work if you're throwing bombs - presumably you have to clear people out to be even able to do that, so you must be able to stop people riding on some closed areas, at least? I'm not asking for an argy bargy: I don't know, please educate me.
The link with the IGN map is useful, as is the pistehors link. In the pistehors news feed posted one day before the fatal slide story is a story explaining how unsafe conditions were about to be.
Quote:
...the snowpack remains highly unstable particularly above about 1,800–2,000 m
with the potential for dangerous, large avalanches.
--
I think Craig Kelly (Blehm's "The Darkest White" etc) was killed by a cascade avalanche (and some guiding errors). Someone released a small slide which kicked off a monster. That season was a classic PWL year also; that season I rode with an operator [credited in the book] who flat out refused to take people into high risk terrain.
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@phil_w, I don't think lifts run or pistes open until it's believed that they're secured/safe.
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@phil_w, I can’t recall whether the Manchet Express was open or not (that’s the chair you can see in the video). But I suspect not as it really only serves one red run and one black which was virtually unskiable 8 days ago due to lack of snow. So it wouldn’t be a priority for the pisteurs.
From those couloirs the easy way out is down the valley via the bottom of Santons as it is downhill - but only marginally. It would be harder work to get to the chair.
But the Solaise Express and Madeleine were open - nothing wrong there as it only opens up benign terrain on piste. However from those lifts both sides of the Manchet Chair off piste are easily accessible - if you ignore the wooden fences, signs and, probably, the piste closure signs for Arcelle and Marmottes pistes. The slopes are convex so you can’t see the bottom from the top or vice versa - increasing the chance that someone will unwittingly ski above you. Inevitably the bottom of the valley which is flattish (wide enough for a rugby pitch) is a terrain trap compounded by the Manchet Stream.
Hopefully, with the aid of a piste map that makes sense - if it doesn’t ask again!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@phil_w, “I'm still unclear: was the lift there was running or not? I'm just wondering if they'd made any of that face safe, …?”
It’s immaterial - the slides were on slopes and gullies over a ridge away from the Manchet Express lift, the Arcelle piste and Marmottons black and would not have been made safe to protect those pistes or lifts - the slides simply couldn’t get to an area which piste security are obliged to control. Piste security control areas which can impact on lifts, pistes or other “public areas” - recall the failing when Tignes’ Grande Balme slid onto the open Carline piste some years ago. Not a failing but the overhanging pitch sliding onto Cascades (closed by ski patrol and closure fatally ignored by a family) - that pitch is often controlled before opening the piste below.
The victims here were very clearly in an off piste area which had absolute zero expectation of being controlled with the aim of improving safety of proximate lifts or pistes. The closest area which could have been affected by these slopes sliding was the cross country area and pedestrian path which were engulfed in a powder cloud but protected by the stream banks/digue.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Yeah that wasn't where I was going.
Quote:
I don't think lifts run or pistes open until it's believed that they're secured/safe.
That is where I was heading. If none of that aspect in that valley was actually "made safe", then I definitely don't want to be there. Not because I'm worried about "cascades", but because if they're the same aspect on the same valley with the same altitude and snowpack...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
phil_w wrote:
Yeah that wasn't where I was going.
Quote:
I don't think lifts run or pistes open until it's believed that they're secured/safe.
That is where I was heading. If none of that aspect in that valley was actually "made safe", then I definitely don't want to be there. Not because I'm worried about "cascades", but because if they're the same aspect on the same valley with the same altitude and snowpack...
That’s not how it works in Europe. What people are saying is that you shouldn’t read anything into whether the pistes and lifts were open or not. If the piste was open that wouldn’t have any bearing on whether the off piste nearby, but not endangering, the piste was safe or not. Equally the piste could still be closed for reasons other than avalanche danger.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@bouquetin, On the other hand the black run is on a similar aspect and is of similar steepness, is never pisted and had the same amount of snow. So if the pisteurs think that piste is not safe to open the off piste is a non starter.
Val Veny again, a sadly regularly appearing location in Courmayeur avalanches. Was due to do a day's off piste in the resort one day but the guide pulled it in the morning as he felt it was too dangerous up high and (interestingly eching now) too wet lower down where it was safer. My ski companion wanted to go up to the Val Veny area alone anyway as we had seen obvious tracks off from the lift but I vetoed it. There was a big slide there a few hours later, 3 people were killed and about 10 or more caught. Felt very much like a close escape as the area looked nice and 5 years prior I would have been straight down it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@8611, the guide pulls out as they reckoned it was too dangerous but your companion wanted to go. Do they have a death wish? You might want to stay clear of that one.
Well that was my reasoning and I think they learned their lesson. If we are relying on the expertise we are relying on the expertise! But we could literally see multiple skiers heading off so you could see why it was tempting. As it happens some of the skiers we saw may have been involved, was quite arresting thinking that later that day.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
chocksaway wrote:
@bouquetin, On the other hand the black run is on a similar aspect and is of similar steepness, is never pisted and had the same amount of snow. So if the pisteurs think that piste is not safe to open the off piste is a non starter.
... the black run is on a similar aspect and is of similar steepness, is never pisted and had the same amount of snow. So if the pisteurs think that piste is not safe to open the off piste is a non starter. ...
That's why I asked.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
That's awful. I can't see that link, but according to the TT, no-one even knew they were caught until they didn't come home. Poor visibility yesterday won't have helped. Not sure exactly where the avi was, but the report says between the Dresdner Hütte (just above mid station) and the Gamsgarten (old bubble) bottom station, so they may have been on their return to the car.
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Remarkable how they tracked them down, you'd think it was like finding needles in a haystack
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Do they have a death wish? You might want to stay clear of that one.