 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm with the chilled Italian filming it. I think the terrain different from Mottaret. My point is she was asking her what other resort users were saying as though they had all been caught in an avalanche as opposed to lightly sprayed with airborne snow.
I also have to confess I wondered how nice that snow would have been to ski after, I presume it is super silky smooth!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The cloud may have been soft, but debris sets up hard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@8611, it's almost like not everyone understands the difference. To non skiers (and probably many recreational skiers) an avalanche is an avalanche.
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Thanks @boarder2020, beautiful photo and equally beautiful comment on slope angle........it really isn't too complicated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm in the gastein valley and I've been shocked at how many solo kids and dads leading even young kids off piste when there's been a big dump and high winds considering a 13yo was killed here a month ago doing exactly that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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At least 10 avalanches in Tirol this morning including one very local to me in Auffach/ Alpbach which required 1 to be resuscitated.
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| Rescue operations were underway in Fiss in the Tyrolean Upper Inn Valley, in the Zillertal Valley, and in Nauders following avalanches. Initially, six people were reported buried. The operations have since concluded, and all victims have been rescued. However, there is now an alert in Alpbach, Kitzbühel, and Kappl. The situation there is critical in some areas. |
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Another fun day with fresh tracks in completely safe terrain. As I said in the other thread nobody is even getting caught in slides out here and and we have similar conditions (level 4 with pwl). Granted a tiny fraction of the number of people, which makes a huge difference. But I simply don't see tracks in dangerous places - everyone is respecting the conditions and keeping it mellow with no overhead danger. I thought maybe this is because most people here are guided and those coming out here unguided are generally quite experienced ski tourers that know what they are doing. But maybe lack of competition for tracks is also a difference. When you can easily find untracked safe routes a week after a storm there's no real excuse to push things.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, where is 'here' ?
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Another death stuck headfirst in the snow in Austria yesterday.
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Dramatic scenes unfolded Saturday afternoon in the Zillertal Arena ski resort in Tyrol: A 52-year-old Dutchman skied off-piste, fell, and became stuck headfirst in deep snow. His wife and daughter raised the alarm after he failed to appear at the meeting point. The man died that evening in the Innsbruck hospital.
The accident occurred around 3:45 p.m. in the municipality of Rohrberg. The 52-year-old Dutchman was skiing downhill on the red-marked piste No. 13a with his wife and daughter when he suddenly decided to ski alone into the off-piste area.
It was a fatal decision! "When the Dutchman did not appear at the agreed meeting point and could not be reached by phone, the woman alerted the cable car staff," the police explained.
Around 4:15 p.m., rescuers found the skier near the "Gründlalm," approximately seven meters off-piste in open terrain. The 52-year-old was stuck headfirst in the snow! "He was dug out and immediately resuscitated," investigators added.
Resuscitation was subsequently taken over by the arriving emergency physician from the "Martin 7" rescue helicopter. After a successful ground rescue – a helicopter flight was apparently not possible due to poor visibility – the victim was taken to the Innsbruck Clinic by ambulance.
The Dutchman lost his fight for survival. As the police explained to the "Krone" newspaper on Sunday, the 52-year-old died on Saturday evening.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As tragic as that one may be, you can't really lump that in as an avalanche death. Asphyxiation in deep snow can happen regardless of the stability.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@TOLOCOMAN, that is true, but it's not something we hear about too often and there have been two within a week or so.
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You know it makes sense.
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@TOLOCOMAN And it probably IS connected to the current high risk (avi 4 or 5) conditions. Far more likely to get stuck headfirst in a metre or two of fresh snow than when it has compacted / stabilised.
Might not be unconnected with (the day after the complete closure last week) La Plagne recommending against even playing off the side of pistes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sure you need deep snow for it, but not unstable conditions at all. For instance, we get about one of these a year in western Canada, even though the entire resort is avy controlled. Believe it or not, it is very possible to have deep snow with very little avalanche risk at the same time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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People seem to be fascinated by death somehow? Related or not, we’re bombarded with endless list of death of all manners.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TOLOCOMAN, merely reporting that there are things other than avalanches that kill people in the current weather conditions. In my experience this is unusual in the Alps, certainly never heard of 2 in a couple of days in the same county. Could also report over 30 avalanches on Friday, more on Saturday with 5 deaths between the 2 days again in the same county. Further avalanches today but none fatal as far as I know atm.
We also had government issued alerts both yesterday and today through the AT alert system that messages everyone connected to the mobile phone network in the affected area (Tirol).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Chris_n, They sent emergency alerts in both Tirol and Vorarlberg. Suddenly everyones phones starting emitting emergency sounds and messages! Never heard of them doing that before. In Kleinwalsertal the pisteurs were constantly patroling and warning people not to go off piste. Of course, some did anyway!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was in Tignes all last week skiing mornings with ESF guides, they were very impressive and prudent. There were plenty of people without back packs and or on their own skiing all sorts of stuff the guides were not even considering. The resort was reporting 5/5 - 4/5 and saying do not ski off piste and there were people in the middle of nowhere in semi whiteouts on their own.
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I have a question. @JayDub, You state that the avalanche risk was at level 4 or level 5.
Did you have lifts running and pistes open on the level 5 day(s), if you did, then the authorities need shooting!!
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@Rogerdodger, the ratings are a blunt instrument, with a range on each level (strong 3 etc). I've seen 5's where the lifts are shut and there is a stay at home order issued, and 5's where the lifts are open to access pistes that the pisteurs feel can be made safe. If someone chooses to go off-piste on a 5 day then Darwin will step in, but you can't physically stop someone who is determined to go off-piste.
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Well @Dr John, we live and learn. I have always expressed the opinion that level 5 has no relevance to skiers, on the basis that all is closed down and the security of the village, dorf, town etc
has been placed in the hands of the mayor and the police/military.
To learn that resorts are still operational on a 5 is quite frankly breath taking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hubby has been relentlessly questioned by non-skiing siblings re avalanches this week. Convinced he's going to come to a sticky end when we go out next week. Explaining to someone who isn't a skier is quite tricky. We can be perfectly safe on piste while others venturing onto exposed slopes in the same area may be in danger.
Resorts delay opening after heavy falls to assess and reduce the risks by controlled avalanches. If they have done that and are comfortable to open the slopes to skiers I don't see why anyone needs shooting? They will keep the dangerous areas closed and open the safer runs. If there are none of those then things will be in lockdown. I've probably skied on a 5 day, but never off-piste and usually in the trees, as it often means snow is still falling. I skied in Alleghe during the 2014 snowMageddon and it was certainly high risk there and up in Arabba where the rest of the snowHeads were. One lift open I think. It is the only time I have seen pisteurs actually physically stop someone from skiing down a closed run. It opened later in the week, and it was easy to see why it was shut.
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@Rogerdodger,
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the authorities need shooting!!
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Not really, as @Dr John, says, it's a blunt instrument. Yes, typically, 5/5 suggests danger to infrastructure, but this can be localised and very much up to the local experts. Not sure where the military come in  
Certainly in the last weeks, 5/5 in Chamonix valley meant restrict travel to essentials (i.e. a decent tartiflette at lunch) and no lifts operating. In similar conditions in Val d'Isère, say, I'd expect "don't leave your residence" - steeper, narrower valley (in places).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I always thought that decisions about what avalanche risk to post were separate from decisions, for example, to prohibit pedestrian movement in case the road is avalanched. And certainly separate from decisions to close roads, or require snow chains. Different authorities, presumably? As for the pistes, it's quite possible that some will be open (if they are in no danger of avalanches) and some closed. Lifts might be closed, or open late, even on slopes in no danger of being avalanched because of the sheer volume of snow burying them, which can't be cleared quickly. I was in Arabba in Snowmageddon and ALL the lifts were closed for a couple of days. That was partly because the huge amount of very heavy, claggy, snow was a serious danger to buildings such as schools (and hotels!), a lot of the available manpower was on roofs shovelling the snow off and as all the passes in and out were closed, nobody was able to get to work anyway. And digging the one lift out, and opening the one short piste, took several days even though it was probably in no great danger of being avalanched.
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I remain baffled by some of the opinion associated with level 5 avalanche risk.
It strikes me that there are too many people who have little or any understanding of the avalanche scale.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Rogerdodger, with the greatest respect (ish), it strikes me that you are a perfect example of someone who has little or any understand the avalanche scale.
You are welcome to state "I have always expressed the opinion that level 5 has no relevance to skiers, on the basis that all is closed down and the security of the village, dorf, town etc", but you are wrong.
Why not accept advice from people who actually live in the mountains? You might learn something.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@JayDub, i was in Tignes last week. You might be slightly exaggerating: there were lots of people off piste but mainly the easy to access low angle stuff between or not fat from pistes, usually after ESF classes had put in first tracks. I didn't see any tracks going to or from big runs (Chardonet/ Borsat/ Bellevarde etc). Howeverr it was definitely an irritation to ESF instructors that many people were following them onto terrain that was safe to ski one by one, less so if people above loading the snowpack
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dr John, many thanks for your informed comments. I am going to offer another "sweeping generalisation".
I live in the Swiss alps during the winter, I conclude that the Swiss operate a far stronger regime during severe weather events than the French.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Rogerdodger, I live in Chamonix all year round and I don’t conclude that at all.
I could, however, imagine that Swiss population adhere to their advice/guidance/obligations better than French populations.
That said, France has ~twice the skier days than CH, (2023-34) 51mn vs 23mn, and yet avalanche fatalities:
FR CH
24-25 20 21
23-24 16 20
22-23 25 23
So it doesn't look to me that the Swiss are any more sensible.
Source: https://www.avalanches.org/fatalities/fatalities-2022-23/
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Hells Bells,
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| We can be perfectly safe on piste while others venturing onto exposed slopes in the same area may be in danger. |
Not quite true, unfortunately, as witnessed by the post above by @under a new name. Over the years I have nearly been caught by three slides on piste, once in St.Anton and twice in Kleinwalsertal. No such thing as 'perfectly safe' IMO. On a 5 day I would not go up the mountain. On a 4 day I'd think carefully about which pistes I ski on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Steilhang, on a day 4 I wouldn't usually be too concerned as I'm fairly familiar with our local protocols. That slide posted was clearly a failure and will have triggered investigation at some level.
5/5 days, round here anyway, generally come with exhortations to minimise travel, stay indoors and even last week advice to close shutters if you had them. And that was in Chamonix itself. Evacuations elsewhere in the valley. I'd be astonished, at least here, if anything opened on a 5/5 day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Rogerdodger, I live in Chamonix all year round and I don’t conclude that at all.
I could, however, imagine that Swiss population adhere to their advice/guidance/obligations better than French populations.
That said, France has ~twice the skier days than CH, (2023-34) 51mn vs 23mn, and yet avalanche fatalities:
FR CH
24-25 20 21
23-24 16 20
22-23 25 23
So it doesn't look to me that the Swiss are any more sensible.
Source: https://www.avalanches.org/fatalities/fatalities-2022-23/ |
interesting. I am pretty sure I saw something on social media from petzl this week claiming things were way worse re: avalanche deaths in france compared to switzerland and austria (i remember a number like 30%). They were promoting the skitourenguru app/website (it's the first video on their page, https://www.facebook.com/Petzl curious to know what you think if you watch it)
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| Steilhang wrote: |
@Hells Bells,
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| We can be perfectly safe on piste while others venturing onto exposed slopes in the same area may be in danger. |
Not quite true, unfortunately, as witnessed by the post above by @under a new name. Over the years I have nearly been caught by three slides on piste, once in St.Anton and twice in Kleinwalsertal. No such thing as 'perfectly safe' IMO. On a 5 day I would not go up the mountain. On a 4 day I'd think carefully about which pistes I ski on. |
I think you'd approach that very differently if you only had 6 days a season, had been booked for a year, no flexibility on dates, you're already up the mountain as staying in resort the lifts were turning and the pistes were open.
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I stayed home on the 5/5 day when i was in chamonix the other week, but one of m buddies went to ski les houches. For me it wasnt even worth the risk driving - but he gets like 10 ski days a year so he went. (i get 50+, maybe even close to 100)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@bouquetin, but if it’s 5/5 the lifts won’t be running. Les Houches, for example, is quite distant from the rest of the Chamonix valley and would have a different risk number.
@kat’s comment on driving entirely reasonable against a background of Mairie advising minimal travel and e.g. a big avalanche/rockslide blocking the road 350m down from my house.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @bouquetin, but if it’s 5/5 the lifts won’t be running. |
They might be, and the Avalanche risk scale allows for that, in that is says you should only ski on open pistes or trails when it is level 5.
Some rersorts have no pistes or lifts that can be made safe on a level 5 day, others have some, and will open them.
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FAQ
