 Poster: A snowHead
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The following points were made in the discussions about Saturday's difficult conditions:
1. Police prevented people with snow socks from driving up the mountain - insisting on chains only
2. Police were requiring those with all season tyres to chain up whilst allowing those with "winters" to proceed without.
There has often been confusion about snow socks - and perhaps not all socks are equal. And we know that not all chains are equal.
But AFAIK it has been widely accepted that tyres with the "3 peaks snowflake" symbol meet the requirement.
And if only certain marques of snow socks are accepted, this needs to be made clear.
Thoughts? People often ask about this on Snowheads - and we should get our facts right.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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and we should get our facts right
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Yep - and we won't get them here, unless someone can link to official advice from local police etc
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But AFAIK it has been widely accepted that tyres with the "3 peaks snowflake" symbol meet the requirement.
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Certainly my view, again do we know they were 4season with 3PMSF or M&S tyres?
Again my understanding that only one brand of snow socks was been certified by relevant authorities as allowable
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Boris, do all seaons have M&S marks I thought they were meaningless?
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Probably worth pointing out that not all winter tyres come equal either. Speaking as someone who seems to have a really rubbish set and struggles to get up relatively small hills at times!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@swskier, you probably know this already, but ÖAMTC test and compare winter tyres. We just picked some from their top 5 that we could get the best deal on! I think they're Dunlop – defo better than the ones we recycled anyway.
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@under a new name, I don't think so, but I have seen comments (T6 forum) where people are of the view that M&S tyres are ok in alps
@Origen, It would be nice to get a definitive answer on these points and have sticky thread, as you say these things are asked all the time
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There are all seasons with 3pmsf marking. Mine were great on the ice and snow we had in the Peak. Travelling to the alps I also pack chains, car is 4wd as well!
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Whilst All Seasons and/or snow socks might satisfy the requirements of French law in alpine regions, that isn't going to overrule the rozzers on the spot. If they insist on chains, then chains it is. Before the introduction of the recent law, when summers were legally 'ok', they could and would still stop you and insist you chained up, and it's no different now that everyone should be on 3PMSF and/or socks.
If you look at the tyre tests, on proper ice all seasons and socks do not match the performance of proper winter tyres, and similarly winter tyres cannot match the performance of chains. So on a busy transfer day, when there is known to be black ice ahead, I can understand the police insisting you chain up regardless of the type of rubber you have fitted. It's also much easier and quicker for the police to see you are chained up rather than than stopping every car to inspect the type of tyre fitted, and the tread remaining.
It'll probably only be required once or twice a season, but when those ice days coincide with transfer day you'd better be carrying chains, and be prepared to use them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Origen, ...very useful many thanks
we use winters on steels - slightly narrower, slightly higher profile, listed in Skoda handbook as permissible OEM fitment
while winters are on, summers on alloys are sustaining no wear
so no cost other than outlay on steels and winters but low cost compared to utility
we are lucky to have room to store them in the barn
no all season for us
and I think it will def stay that way
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 12-01-26 13:16; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Judwin,
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Whilst All Seasons and/or snow socks might satisfy the requirements of French law in alpine regions, that isn't going to overrule the rozzers on the spot. If they insist on chains, then chains it is.
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This. It's somewhat akin to being run over on a pedestrian crossing: it might have been your right of way, but that won't necessarily help you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Always a bit of a dilemma when you pick up an AWD car with Winter tyres at GVA and they 1) insist you will not need chains and 2) chains won't fit anyway.
Ultimately it's not life and death to get up the mountain on the Saturday, but it is bloody inconvenient when you have a car equipped to the letter of the law and get over-ridden by local gendarmes. But equally you can understand their position - they don't need marginal cases on the roads in those peak hours, and a non-local in an unfamiliar car isn't always going to pass the sniff test.
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Regardless of what the law states the gendarmes on the spot seem to make their own rules depending on the conditions, sometimes rightly so in my opinion.
Several years back we drove to Andorra, huge amounts of fresh snow, severe blizzard conditions (proper risk to life if it goes wrong). French police pulled everyone over, everyone on summer tyres or two wheel drive on winters either had to fit proper chains, or were turned around. Only four wheel drive with winter tyres were waved through. Worked well for us in our then Audi Allroad Quattro with winter tyres. By the time others had fitted chains the road was fully closed behind us, and after the last heavyweight SUV had slid off the road we had a completely clear run up the last hairpins, enough snow so it exploded over the car hitting the drifts across the road.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Scarlet, I haven't looked in to new tyres yet as ours still have tread left, then every winter we say, we really should buy better tyres next year and not the budget version. On Saturday we couldn't even get from the main road in Zillertal up to the Spieljochbahn in Fügen without putting the chains on. We weren't the only ones struggling, and driving a Transit Custom doesn't help, but a VW transporter went flying up through a field of snow while we couldn't get up the road with barely a bit of snow on it!
I'll check out the ÖAMTC though when we do replace them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@swskier, Be aware that they age out even if you don't do that many miles. We had a flat, so were looking at replacing a pair anyway, when we realised that they were probably 11+ years old and should really be replaced, even though they were technically still legal. We don't do enough miles to run summers either, and given they had cracked sidewalls, we binned them too and regained a bit of cellar storage space. Car handling has improved.
Several nasty crashes in Zillertal over the weekend though, I saw in the news. Is the ploughing not up to the usual standards?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
1. Police prevented people with snow socks from driving up the mountain - insisting on chains only
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I have no idea what exact legal situation might be.
However in my experience (col du lauteret) it is not uncommon for French police to insist on "chains only" when conditions get really spicey.
| Judwin wrote: |
Whilst All Seasons and/or snow socks might satisfy the requirements of French law in alpine regions, that isn't going to overrule the rozzers on the spot. If they insist on chains, then chains it is. Before the introduction of the recent law, when summers were legally 'ok', they could and would still stop you and insist you chained up, and it's no different now that everyone should be on 3PMSF and/or socks.
If you look at the tyre tests, on proper ice all seasons and socks do not match the performance of proper winter tyres, and similarly winter tyres cannot match the performance of chains. So on a busy transfer day, when there is known to be black ice ahead, I can understand the police insisting you chain up regardless of the type of rubber you have fitted. It's also much easier and quicker for the police to see you are chained up rather than than stopping every car to inspect the type of tyre fitted, and the tread remaining.
It'll probably only be required once or twice a season, but when those ice days coincide with transfer day you'd better be carrying chains, and be prepared to use them. |
Good summary.
Ultimately if one car gets stuck then that can quickly close an entire road.
So you can understand why enforcement from Police can be strict enforcing rules.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 12-01-26 13:50; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Scarlet, ours are only 3 or 4 years old, so fine still.
I don't think there was any real issue with the ploughing over the weekend, more user error if you ask me. Saturday afternoon was quite slippery as it was wet snow in the valley.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Was this a case of the police deciding what was legal? Or was it a case of what was acceptable in the conditions on the day? Therefore enduring those that were suitably equipped had a chance to get through and those that didn't wouldn't be causing issues and draining resources.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Boris wrote: |
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and we should get our facts right
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Yep - and we won't get them here, unless someone can link to official advice from local police etc
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But AFAIK it has been widely accepted that tyres with the "3 peaks snowflake" symbol meet the requirement.
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Certainly my view, again do we know they were 4season with 3PMSF or M&S tyres?
Again my understanding that only one brand of snow socks was been certified by relevant authorities as allowable |
I think Autosock's are the certified ones. https://www.autosock.co.uk/ - They are, at least, the ones i have had - tho' til date I have not had to use them.
"AutoSock are approved as a snowchain alternative, in Switzerland and across the EU (except Austria)
AutoSock meets the new standard EN16662, effective from 1st December 2020, which covers the safety, quality and performance of “supplementary grip devices", including metal snow chains and devices made from other materials. The approval only covers cars (vehicle category M1) and light commercial vehicles to 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight (vehicle category N1). To the best of our knowledge AutoSock is the only product, which is not a metal snow chain, which has been approved to the new standard.
In other words, you may now use AutoSock instead of snowchains in Alpine regions. Our advice to ski drivers, because AutoSock and snowchains each work well in some situations and not so well in others, and because it makes sense to have grip on all 4 wheels, is to buy both snowchains and AutoSock; more information is available on the Snow chains pages at roofbox.co.uk, a site owned and managed by us"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think there may have been a few cars made it up Le Corbier on Saturday with only winter tyres but the police definitely stopped some folk, including some of our group, from coming up without chains. Having come up in a fully equipped local taxi, I can understand why. It felt like we were driving on a red cat track, with piste markers either side. I've skied on several cat tracks with less snow on them. There were a lot of cars struggling on the road, with many stopping to sort chains or socks. From my understanding of some local Facebook posts, the police were fairly picky about which socks they considered were ok.
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Autosock socks are great.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Was this a case of the police deciding what was legal? Or was it a case of what was acceptable in the conditions on the day? Therefore enduring those that were suitably equipped had a chance to get through and those that didn't wouldn't be causing issues and draining resources. |
The latter above St Jean de Maurienne I think. And even then there was carnage.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| Was this a case of the police deciding what was legal? Or was it a case of what was acceptable in the conditions on the day? Therefore enduring those that were suitably equipped had a chance to get through and those that didn't wouldn't be causing issues and draining resources. |
The latter above St Jean de Maurienne I think. And even then there was carnage. |
It won't be the former. If it were, they'd have ended up doling out thousands of tickets to anyone who wasn't 'legal', rather than taking the sensible approach and trying to keep the road moving.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wasn't in the Tarentaise this weekend, but my son was. He works for a transfer companay doing transfers from Geneva to the resorts. He is based in Moutiers and deals with getting people on and off buses there and also works out of Meribel/Mottaret. Key things he passed on to me (aka ranted about).
1. If you have to put on chains, do it when you think you mght need to do it soon. DO NOT stop in the middle of the road to Les Allues, therefore blocking the road in both directions, on a steep section of the carriageway so that you have to do a hill start to get the chain fully on. This means eaveryone else behind you has to do a hill start on hard snow. Plan in advance and don't be a fool.
2. If you stop on the road in a village (or indeed anywhere else) due to high traffic volumes (and possibly a fool who has stopped in the middle of the carriageway so that they can put their chains on), try to do so in a manner which doens't obstruct both carriageways and do remember that coaches use these roads as well.
3. Make sure you have snacks and drinks in the car. The run up to VT was taking 8-12hrs for most of Saturday.
4. It will be impossible to get information from any authority as to what is happening, you have to rely on this forum, Ski club GB resort page and phoning friends in resort.
5. If you use a transfer company, check what their cancellation policy is if the road is blocked or there are long delays. My son ended up rescuing people booked with other companies and giving them lifts to whatever accomodation they booked in the valley as he's a nice guy. His company carried on working and everyone got to their destination.
6. If you are booked with a transfer company who abandons you in Moutiers, please don't go to the reps of other firms and scream at them about how it is all their fault....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The only tyres that are "winter tyres" are those with a 3PMSF rating
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you can get all season tyres with a 3PMSF rating
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This is why people get confused - your first comment would imply all-seasons aren't winter tyres, but surely they are if they are rated accordingly.
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1. If you have to put on chains, do it when you think you mght need to do it soon.
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I would assume that chains are needed if police are at foot of climb by the chainage areas getting people to chain up. If the road is clear at this point, along with the first few bends, I think most people would assume chains are not required as road is clear
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I would assume that chains are needed if police are at foot of climb by the chainage areas getting people to chain up. If the road is clear at this point, along with the first few bends, I think most people would assume chains are not required as road is clear
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There are times when police aren't there (they weren't on the climb up to Meribel on Sat) but the summer tyres club may decide they have to put chains on at some point. That decision needs to be made early and in the appropriate aire de chainnage, or in a safe place to stop.
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Saturday’s traffic looked bad in places. Sunday, however, was fine. The road to Arc 1800 was completely clear of snow up to the resort entrance, so the resort’s snow clearance service must had done a great job. Being properly equipped for the potential conditions is important, but if you can find accommodation which offers Sunday-Sunday bookings you reduce the risk of getting caught in snowmageddon quite significantly.
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You know it makes sense.
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@SarahRad, and this is the problem, if there is no enforcement and the road is clear, the temptation would be to carry on. Of course if you then hit snow you'll need to stop and chain up - and get in people's way.
I can't see people stopping to chain up if the next X miles are going to be on tarmac
Obviously if it is snowing heavily and you're about to climb, common sense would dictate you put chains on - but common sense is not that common
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Obviously if it is snowing heavily and you're about to climb, common sense would dictate you put chains on - but common sense is not that common
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I totally get that!
There were also people who put their snow socks on in Moutier and carried on at 70kmph and arrived with snow ribbons.
Common sense was lacking I understand!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Not sure we can learn anything because I am not sure the assertions 1 and 2 made can be properly verified.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So we are driving down in Feb half term and have been having this very discussion re chains. Will now def get chains having read this! Never had to carry them before and never driven on conditions where needed them other than en route to Carlisle but that’s another story.
We asked a friend if we could borrow but don’t think they’ll fit. We have a new Hyundai Santa Fe (only car ridiculous tall boys won’t complain about leg room in  )
My question is..is it worth hiring or just buy them?
Thanks!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can understand the police insisting you chain up regardless of the type of rubber you have fitted
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Absolutely - and that's been my experience. Both times I've been required to chain up, my car had good winter tyres (not all seasons). That's why I was bemused by the suggestion that police had been inspecting tyres in detail and requiring people with, say, Michelin Cross Climates (which I now have as I don't drive to the Alps as much these days) to put chains on, whereas those with "proper" winter tyres could carry on unchained.
There have been a fair number of other occasions (not transfer days) where I've made my own decision to put chains on, at the first suspicion of a lack of traction, and done so off the road, not getting in anybody's way.
Not sure we can learn anything because I am not sure the assertions 1 and 2 made can be properly verified.
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Not sure we can learn anything because I am not sure the assertions 1 and 2 made can be properly verified.
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Not sure what you mean by that, @Layne. It was on the 3V thread. I am suggesting they were mistaken.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Unfortunately, I'd surmise that the whole "control" is probably down to the Gendarmes at the scene, with no directive/ authority from the Marie or Prefecture.
Just becasue it happens on one road up to some resorts does not necessarily mean it will happen on others, at the end of the day though, ditch the socks, as again these past few days I've seen some amusing/ridiculous sights, and that's just the people arriving. God forbid it should snow a week later for their departure too.
I've also seen some Michelin rope-type chains??
It would also be a very brave (foolish) person to debate the legal certification status of Autosocks with a Gendarme in those conditions 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 12-01-26 16:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Full on winter tyres cannot compare to cross climates.
I had a rear wheel drive Mercedes on full winters, never ever got stuck, even in deep snow on the way to Val D. Utterly remarkable.
Drove a Renault last week with Cross Climates on in Cheshire-no problems really but still had a little wheelspin when pulling off, a huge huge difference for the worse.
My opinion (that you wont want), if you are driving up big hill in the snow get full winters or stay at home (or a car park) until the roads are fit for driving on.
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Be careful with those Easy Grips to get EXACTLY the right size - and they don’t cover all tyre sizes either.
We had some on Mrs A’s Peugeot that were fractionally too large. I managed to pull out BOTH hydraulic brake lines which made the footbrake totally useless. I only discovered this when we were beginning the steep descent into Meltham. I dived for the handbrake and suddenly we were pointing uphill. That one was ever so close.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Travelmum wrote: |
So we are driving down in Feb half term and have been having this very discussion re chains. Will now def get chains having read this! Never had to carry them before and never driven on conditions where needed them other than en route to Carlisle but that’s another story.
We asked a friend if we could borrow but don’t think they’ll fit. We have a new Hyundai Santa Fe (only car ridiculous tall boys won’t complain about leg room in )
My question is..is it worth hiring or just buy them?
Thanks! |
We have AutoSocks, they've never been out of the bag. They live in the car year round because having bought them I might be in the UK and still need them(even down south.) They weren't expensive.
On all my drives so far the road has just been tarmac. Each year I do wonder if this is the year.
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@Travelmum, it's a legal requirement to have them and (as this thread shows) safer to have them than relying on snowsocks. If you've just purchased the car, and intend to keep for a few years, then I would buy some. snowchains.com or the roofbox company have been very helpful in past when I've purchased
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FAQ
