Austria at Christmas: your thoughts...

A snowHead

Kids are jazzed after last week’s first trip and Christmas has been mooted as our next ski holiday… wife has always wanted to go somewhere snowy at crimbo, kids have come round to not having as many prezzies if they get to ski/snowboard, I just want to go skiing… Found the thread where I tapped the SH hive mind about Christmas in a ski resort, but with that being 4 YEARS AGO (time flies) thought I’d get some more info…

Self-drive, self-catering for Christmas, stopovers on the way out and back (eg: Belgium), roadtrip-style, that’s all nailed-on. We’re comfortable with that…

… But tell me about Austria; Best resorts for getting to, for families, for amenities, for greens/blues?

Never done Austria in the Winter but looking currently, it seems to be more about B&B/HB pensions rather than self-catered apartments – or am I looking in the wrong place?
Are we asking too much for a resort where it’s compact (not necessarily small), with little need to bus around to get to ski lifts, or is that just how Austria is?

Do we do the Sunweb/Snowtrex route of included lift passes, or will full DIY, sort-everything yield a better result?

Over to Snowheads….

A snowHead

@Specialman,
By 'snowy at crimbo' do you mean on the mountain, in the village or both?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've recently been to Obertauern with a 1st week adult snowboarder.
The village is snowsure at over 1600 m altitude. In a bowl surrounded by mostly blue pistes but not the really easy kind.
Yet they were wide and well groomed.
It was easy and almost ski out to leave in the morning, ski in in the afternoons.
A lot more compact than Madonna or Saalbach for example, it was nice that you can view the town from almost all the top of the pistes.
Decent Spar and plenty of decent restaurants for the evening, we were in a B&B *** family hotel.
30 min driving from the historical village of Radstadt which is much lower so greener that early in the season but I understand that for the last seasons it offers accommodation with extended breakfast, a la carte dining AND free ski pass for Ski Amade
https://www.radstadt.com/en/pauschalen/ski-special-7-nights/
You'll need a car obviously for Radstadt but plenty of ski resorts to easily drive to, all in the valley and well connected by skiing and chairlifts.
Obertauern is separated, much higher but compact and more expensive.
An Austrian place with strong Bavarian influences, great Austrian apres ski from 14:00 just above the village and mostly German speaking skiers.

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@Specialman, I'm biased and would suggest Saalbach Hinterglemm, good linked ski area and attractive village and 60 mountain restaurants

Driving, we stop about 5 hrs drive from Calais, Merzig or Neunkirchen then it's 7 hours to Saalbach, we avoid France it doesn't save much time and saves £, we also stop at Saarbrucken or Karlsruhe Ettlingen if we want to push it on the way out.

Accommodation , yes there is self catering, check my link the man who rents ours out has a selection, @tatmanstours can also help.

Getting to the slopes, ours is two stops to Saalbach and 10 minutes to Hinterglemm to the 12erKogel, then you don't need a bus until the end of the day.

Make sure you don't buy petrol in Germany unless you have to Luxembourg is the place.

Diy v package if you are going for a week then package might be the way to go or build your own flight accommodation combo.

Saalbach is around an hour to an hour and a half from Salzburg if you take the shuttle transfer (€70 pp)and just over 2 if you take the public bus €15.90 each way pp with one change

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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First point to make is that Christmas is unreliable for snow (it always was more so now) so temper expectations accordingly. The snow sure places naturally are the most expensive.

Apartments are plentiful, generally larger and better equipped than in France. Best place to look is on the website of the tourist office for the particular village / area you are looking at. Half board hotels are very common, catered chalets less so. It used to be the case that Pension Garni (guest house B&B) was the most common but many of those have been changing into apartments (less work, more money for the owners).

As to location. If you have the budget then Lech is perfect but make sure you are sitting down before you look at prices (closer to Calais than many other places), Ischgl is very snow sure but again pricey, the Saalbach suggestion is a good one not so snow sure but excellent snow making, SkiAmade is potentially a good option but may be a bit of a risk for Christmas, Obertauern & Obergurgl both compact and high but maybe a bit bleak in mid winter. Plenty of other suggestions if none of these appeal.

Not sure driving makes sense (car must have winter tyres) flying to Munich, Innsbruck, Salzburg or Zürich quicker and possibly cheaper

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@munich_irish, correct as always.
Only now I have discovered the strategic position of Radstadt and their package.
For sunny days the 20 min uphill drive to Obertauern will supply the snowy area.
When snowing, the 7 min to Flachauwinkl will be a good anchor.

After all it is free

Just for balance...
everyone is on holiday during Christmas and it can be busier than half term.
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=5224740

If you do self cater, rather than be in on Christmas Eve be sure to book yourselves in for Christmas Eve dinner out at a local family run hotel, they tend to make a real event if it. We had a really memorable dinner at one when we self catered.

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@Klamm Franzer, “ Just for balance...
everyone is on holiday during Christmas and it can be busier than half term. ”

I’ve always reckoned that Saalbach is relatively quiet (maybe 60-70% full) during Christmas week, compared with New Year week and Salzburgerland/Bavarian half term (both 100%).

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@Specialman, message me if you’d like a copy of my guide to Saalbach (where I live most of the time), and details of ski-in ski-out accommodation.

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@Specialman, Saalbach is good and so is the Ski Amade. I think you said you're driving so no issues with getting about. 760km of pistes on single lift pass, lots of great places to stay. Plenty of apartments available through local tourist office sites (try Wagrain and Flachau), some of which do include lift passes in their packages. Sunweb has multiple options in Flachau. The last two seasons have seen the Snowspace (Flachau/Wagrain/Alpendorf) open early due to better than expected conditions. This season we were skiing back to the village from 3rd Dec.

On the odd occasion I drive from the UK we usually plan a wine stop in the Rhine Valley.

Book early!! The Easter Holidays are so late next year most of the guests I've spoken to are thinking about coming at Christmas instead.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Specialman, transfer from Salzburg to Saalbach is straight forward, you can do public bus, bus train bus, if you choose Saalbach then don't do Innsbruck .

Winter or all season with the mountain symbol are a must November to end March, chains are an extra option

Public train and bus options here https://salzburg-verkehr.at/en/

A snowHead

@NickyJ, that place looks banging as well - pretty luxurious but obvs with the caveat you need to get to the ski lifts somehow

@radar, the winter tyre thing is a big obstacle; talking £300 minimum for a set of half-decent winter tyres, that's a real deal-breaker, especially as I do such low mileage per year (<5000).

But, I'll keep my options open - not writing it off yet over a set of tyres...

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Specialman, The winter tyre requirement in Austria only applies in wintry conditions. Needless to say, it is quite likely that you will encounter wintry conditions (snow or ice) at Christmas, but I’m just making the point that winter tyres aren’t an absolute requirement in the winter months, unless conditions dictate otherwise. Summer tyres, plus carrying snow chains, would comply with the law. Having winter tyres is of course preferable.

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@Specialman, I thought winter tyres were compulsory in Austria but happy to bow to other's knowledge, here in Germany it is correct that they are only legally required if conditions dictate but it really doesnt seem sensible to set out for a long trip without them on the off chance it will be dry (in which case likely to be no snow!). Given how much the rest of your trip will cost it doesnt seem a big thing, likely to be less than the cost of a week's ski pass for one person. Here everyone one has two sets and changes in April & October. Flying / car hire (or transfers) is almost certainly going to be cheaper than driving especially with the cost of stop overs. Personally would not bother with snow chains very unlikely to need them unless staying somewhere remote. I understand that the Austrian Police are keen on checking non Austrian vehicles (especially Dutch folk apparently) and then insisting on taking said car to local garage to fit expensive new tyres!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Specialman, Just saw earlier comment, snow chains are no use on a motorway so not a replacement for winter tyres. Only really useful when then is a fair layer of compacted snow on the road, which is very unlikely on any of the main roads around here. You could look at getting Michelin Cross Climate 2 tyres fitted, they comply, are excellent on snow and good all year round.

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@munich_irish, it’s a calculated risk for me, when I drive down from the U.K. in late November or early December for the ski season - my winter wheels being in storage in Austria.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Specialman, if yoy find palatable prices on flights, you can book those now. If you find somewhere acceptable on booking.com with free cancellation, then you can secure that. This is what we are doing, and did last year. Although had Saturday flights last year booked to Munch with Lufthansa on first release. This time BA ones to Salzburg and should have decided to book sooner in hindsight!

I just checked back on when I booked our accommodation last year and it was 23rd June. We did same thing then and I cancelled the Booking.com place as the Sunweb one eas better value and better location.

After all it is free

Winter tyres,

Germany rules,
https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en/winter-tyres/2487800

Autrian rules, https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/en/themen/mobilitaet/kfz/10/2/Seite.063100.html

As you say its a company car is it worth the investment

Kaprun, is a small area if you want to get over to Zell am See it would be a bus.

Snowsure, we have skied in early /mid December every year (except one COVID) since 2016 in Saalbach the snowmaking is exceptional.

@Specialman, or go to France. There are plenty of nice places for Christmas but, just as in Austria, will be busy.

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“ Snowsure, we have skied in early /mid December every year (except one COVID) since 2016 in Saalbach the snowmaking is exceptional.”

Just spent my 18th consecutive Christmas there (so every Christmas since and including 2006). Have always skied on Christmas Day. I can remember one Christmas Day when there was literally too much snow and the weather closed the lifts. And two Christmases when the Alps generally were suffering from a snow drought (plenty of blues skies during December, but no snow clouds), and the snow cover was limited and confined to pistes above mid-station (until the heavens opened and it bucketed down after Christmas).
And one remarkable Christmas a few years ago, when again there had been little or no snowfall in the northern Alps generally during November and December, and I arrived in mid-December expecting it to be hopeless, but was amazed to find that the snowmaking had enabled most of the ski area to be opened, including the links to the satellite villages. Skiers were being bussed in from other (snowless) resorts.
Generally though, Mother Nature obliges during November, when the snow cannons are also switched on, and the resort is able to open at the beginning of December - gradually for the first week or two, but fully open by the middle of December. That is at least the norm.

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“ Bit of a shame about everyone’s holidays being the same time but it is what it is, hopefully people have amnesia and forget about going skiing at Christmas”

I might be wrong, but I would have thought that people will be split between the Christmas and the New Year weeks. My experience has been that Christmas week is relatively low-key, as many people like to spend Christmas with their families at home, before arriving en masse for the New Year week. If I’m right, the hordes will arrive on 27th/28th December.

And I don’t know whether it has any bearing on it, but the overwhelming majority of winter visitors to the French Alps are French (or British); whereas the majority of visitors to Austrian ski resorts are German, Dutch, or Scandinavian.

@Specialman, was sorting out some photo's and thought I would share a December 2023 Skiing photo in Saalbach, Christmas will be a bit busier Very Happy

Tatmantours and I have commented that there are more Brits appearing in Saalbach, the French resorts are closer Laughing

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

“So where do the Austrians ski?”

@Origen, They mainly ski in Austria (and Austria has more big resorts than France), but, as it’s only a small country with a relatively high proportion of its land covered by mountains, they make up only a small fraction of the winter visitors to their ski resorts.
More than twice as many Austrians as French participate in winter sports, yet 75% of winter visitors to French ski resorts are French, whereas only 33% of winter visitors to Austrian resorts are Austrian.
And the biggest contingent of foreign visitors to French resorts are the British, whereas in Austria it’s the Germans and the Dutch.
Hence winter sports international tourism is far more important to the Austrians than the French - which might explain a few things.

A snowHead

“So where do the Austrians ski?” As @tatmanstours, said, at home. But they tend not to ski/book Christmas week. New Year week is normally our busiest week of the season and that often blends into the following week until Epiphany. If you're planning on ski lessons then book online as soon as you've chosen your resort. We get pretty busy, especially children's ski school.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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“ You would struggle to find many similar generic "anti Austria" comments on Snowheads.”

@Origen, Yes, there are perhaps good reasons for that. And IMHO any perceived “digs” are invariably based on fact, experience, or anecdotal evidence. (Not that, on rereading my previous post I can actually see any “digs”)

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@Origen, I don’t know what I’ve said to cause such an emotional and acerbic reaction. Perhaps we’re at cross purposes.

I have no wish to divert this thread and engage with you in turning it into one of those perennial, tedious A v F debates.
But, just so that you and others know where I’m coming from with my previous comments, there are many inescapable and obvious differences between the two countries, many of which may be explained by the fact that traditionally the French skiing industry has been driven by the domestic market (geared towards the less than 15% of the French population that skis, but makes up 75% of visitors to its ski resorts). Whereas the Austrian skiing market has been driven primarily by international tourism (35% of Austrians ski, and 62% of their country is covered by the Alps, but only 33% of visitors to Austrian ski resorts are from the home country).

The difference in skiing culture, as well as the relative importance of winter tourism to the national and local economies is obvious. The differences are many and pronounced, and are not confined to the contrast between functional, urbanised, purpose-built, French ski stations with their “compact” “résidences de tourisme”, and the typical Austrian former farming village with family-run hotels, or the differences in investment, attitudes, customer service, and price/value for money.

For the record I have spent just about as many of my 40 odd skiing years skiing in France as in Austria, and I used to organise annual chalet parties, usually three per season, to many of the well-known French resorts. I have discovered many such resorts that I liked, and have invariably returned to them more than once.

But I have also witnessed the massive investment in the Austrian ski industry (over EUR 6 billion invested over the decade ending 2020, with 50% of revenues frequently reinvested. Austria now has the most updated lift infrastructure of any country, and it has
overhauled France as the country hosting the greatest number of international skier visits. And that is despite France having more ski resorts, higher mountains, and at least twice as many domestic skiers.

Now, if you want to pursue a debate, or have your own theories to expound, I respectfully suggest that you find or start an appropriate thread, in which I shall be happy to join you.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Pam, my personal impression is that for large groups/chalet parties or for total ski in/ski out seekers France makes more sense while Austria feels better for couples/singles/2 to 3 friends happy to ski all day, party at an apres ski and return to the village for a good VFM local dinner.
But again, it's a very personal impression.
I enjoyed reading your chalet experiences but being very limited in the folks who accompany me, Austria with its excellent single and doubles B&B/half board makes a very decent and enjoyable ski destination.
It's also a different experience.
French skiing industry goes for your hard earned money with silly prices for almost evth in the high altitude resorts.
While Austrians are passionate for their mountains, summer and winter and their infrastructure is unrivaled.
And definitely both countries have excellent domains:
After last season's Tignes and Avoriaz where almost everyone around me was a native English speaker, it felt interesting albeit challenging at times to be the only English speaker in Obertauern, a resort with lively family apres ski and a Bavarian atmosphere. But I felt the same in Risoul a few years ago, BTW.

After all it is free

@drporat,
“ my personal impression is that for large groups/chalet parties or for total ski in/ski out seekers France makes more sense while Austria feels better for couples/singles/2 to 3 friends happy to ski all day, party at an apres ski and return to the village for a good VFM local dinner.”

I wouldn’t disagree with that. The traditional British catered chalet (if that is still as much of a thing since Brexit) is ideal for larger groups holidaying in France or Switzerland. You have a ready-made social circle, you are insulated from the high prices in bars and restaurants, and the comparative lack of après-ski entertainment doesn’t matter so much.
I once asked a chalet company boss why there are few chalets in Austria, and he winked and said “Because the Austrians don’t need them”.

“ Obertauern, a resort with lively family apres ski and a Bavarian atmosphere.”

That’s interesting. I ran into a group of British holiday reps late last season in a mountain restaurant in Saalbach. I got chatting to one of them, who said that they had spent the season repping in Obertauern. I was curious, as I knew that it was a high resort (which my sat nav had occasionally directed me through), and an old friend used to tell me that he and his wife always went there.

The rep (who seemed knowledgeable and level-headed) said that Obertauern was okay as a high, snowsure ski area, but that she would never recommend it to anyone for a holiday - “totally lacking in atmosphere”.

I recounted this conversation to a friend a couple of months ago, and he confirmed that that had been his impression too (having spent a holiday there).
No doubt certain things are subjective and depend on personal experiences.

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@Origen, “ I don't want a debate.”

That is becoming far from apparent! And, for someone so hypersensitive and prickly about any perceived criticism of your beloved France, it’s somewhat paradoxical that you also seem so beloved of the word, “defensive”. And your defensiveness extends to the use of hyperbole and non sequiturs.

It may surprise you to know that I’m also a Francophile (in fact I’ll be there next Sunday). All I have done is refer to facts and authoritative research on the skiing industry.

Help!!

Austria at Christmas: your thoughts...

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