 Poster: A snowHead
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Having lived in a cave during Lockdown, I entirely missed the go no go FIS ban on flouro waxes. They are pretty nasty for n’vironment and fauna - and it’s clear that you put them on your skis and then particulates are left all over the mountain. I still have some bars of TOKO fluorinated waxes in the wax box, but for years I have not used flouro, preferring lower temp hydrocarbons such as Butta. In fact Butta wax smells so nice when you wax that I ignore the snow conditions and reach for it to get a fix off the vapours. Nice exchange scheme here, but only in N USA:
https://www.skimag.com/performance/this-company-is-getting-rid-of-toxic-ski-wax-one-can-at-a-time/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Butta wax smells so nice when you wax that I ignore the snow conditions
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+1
I'm a Butta sniffa
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I use a Butta knife, no not branded but one inherited from Granny's collection, the old straight blade type with bone handle.
Using with a hot air gun to heat blade and wax on ski at very oblique angle, I spread very little wax to economically cover the base before ironing in. Usually there's almost nil waste to remove after waxing, so saving use of that product.
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Linked but another discipline @valais2, is mtb chain lube and content of various concoction often sprayed around too.
I've moved to castor oil with no addative, just cold pressed from castor bean, its not for the clean groupset type outlook as its tacky. But, with exceptional shear strength and water shedding attributes, its absolutely silky smooth in chain lubrication use with some of the best changes you can imagine.
I've one frame (California in origin) that dumps everything from side of tyre onto top line of chain run in serious mud, but this survives even that onslaught.
Non toxic, I bought from medical supply chain as its base oil in many topical skin lotions, seems particularly successful in my personal trial 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, argh risk of turning this into an mtb thread but that’s very interesting - I ride on South Downs and Thetford - latter very gritty - I’ve used motorcycle chain wax (muc off) and for the last three years Ragley HT has been running for months at a time without cleaning and waxing - which is good. But this is v interesting re castor oil and its properties - whole new strand of digging to explore this as an option….
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@ski3, I use castor oil a lot in model aircraft engine fuel for It has its good an bad points. One problem is that it thickens heavily in cold weather. Not a problem for your use?
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That’s interesting and Helpful… Actually thickening in cold weather, if it’s right inside the chain links where it’s needed, could be an asset.
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| achilles wrote: |
| @ski3, I use castor oil a lot in model aircraft engine fuel for It has its good an bad points. One problem is that it thickens heavily in cold weather. Not a problem for your use? |
Firstly apologies to Valais2 first almost immediate thread pollution
To answer that though, no in that it seems to enhance if anything by having a surface tension/distribution that is very effective in shedding any water, with most mud etc not attachimg.
The chain link bearing surfaces under load are way above lubricant hysteris in my view to make it advantage in having high shear properties outweighing the potential drag that may be measurable.
Interesting use in model etc, I've come to it from automotive in guise as Castrol R of course. Pound for pound i understand it to exceed anything reasonably available in shear properties (how resistant it is to break through the oil film under extreme loading)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@valais2, We could take it via pm if more convenient, or get more public input here.
Interesting topic anyway, maybe another thread?
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There's an aside to thickening related to combustion, that being any acid byproduct of the fuel in combustion process that can gell the oil, outside that scenario its much more stable in my experience.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I completely agree those few 100kg ski wax (with probably less then 1kg of fluoro all together), that are produced world wide, is real danger for the world. But as HF waxes are still way better then anything else, and as I prefer to have my skis, especially xc skis, fast, I still stick with HF and fluoro overlays, as long as I can get them. Irony is, that even nowadays, with FIS and IBU gentlemans agreement not to use fluoro, everyone on World cup are still on full fluoro program, including C8 fluoro wax not just C6.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@primoz, interesting….I guess I feel that for most recreational skiers who home wax (stop with the hurr hurr if anyone is tempted at a double entendre) they can forgo the nth degree of performance which flouros provide, and go with more skilled ski prep and good wax choice….
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Does that mean zardoz is no good either?
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You know it makes sense.
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@valais2, I'm probably wrong, but I would assume that when someone is waxing, they are waxing with "good wax choice" not with whatever comes under their hands. Proper ski preparation and good wax choice has it's limits, and if we (and FIS/IBU, or even environment protecting freaks, who think those few kg of waxes will really make difference to world) like it or not, fluoro makes such huge difference, that you really can't come close no matter what you do, to properly prepared ski with fluoro. I made several 1000 ski, wax and structure tests in my previous job, and I have plenty of friends who still do this nowadays, and still everyone agree that currently there's simply no alternative, and until FIS and IBU come out with working device and working procedures to detect this, everyone are still on full fluoro program, regardless of "gentlement's agreement" ski federations signed 2 years ago 
But for recreational skiing, especially alpine, where this is even less important then on xc, I agree that any wax, just that it's done properly and regularly (that means after/before every skiing) is good enough, and it's stupid to spend 100s of euros for HF stuff (I'm lucky I still get that for free )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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40 years ago my dad would partly lubricate bike chains by gently simmering them in paraffin wax on the stove top.
If people don’t like fluoro they probably don’t like paraffin traces on the snow. Whether it’s suitable or not.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@primoz, ...the problem of PFAS is of course much wider than ski wax, although ski wax residue accumulates in specific locations. The fact that are man-made, highly toxic and extremely persistent means that bio-accumulation is an unpleasant reality. We made them, and they just don’t break down, and they are hazardous - hormone-disrupting and cancer-causing.
https://norwegianscitechnews.com/2021/04/toxic-fluorocarbons-not-just-in-ski-waxes/
The blood tests completed on ski techs shows distinct risk to ski techs and to members of amateur race families,mainly through inhalation of particles during ski prep or from areas where ski prep has been done. I guessI just accept that humans have done things which seemed like a good idea at the time (lead water pipes are a good example) which we have to stop because research shows they are a bad idea.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@valais2, I'm not saying it's not toxic. I know they are, regardless what was word on this for last 20 years. I was actually one of first one on xc world cup to be using gas mask when waxing, and I have seen several incidents when someone came with cigarette into wax room full of fluoro vapors. So even though pretty much every single wax company (Norwegians leading at that) were doing researches and proving there's no issues at all, and all ski techs blood and other values show absolutely no issues when exposed to these waxes for decades (last such research showing no issues were less then 6 or 7 years ago... yes I'm almost 100% results were staged and not true), I was rather safe then sorry and used gas mask for most of my time on WC tour. Then all of a sudden this changed, and now it's huge deal, even if now it really shouldn't be huge deal at all, considering what are rules for how wax cabines (and wax truck of course) should be equiped... at least on xc WC (alpine is still more wild west). 20 or 30 years (or on alpine WC it's still so), we were waxing in non-ventilated or poorly ventilated cabines, basements and garages. Now, at least of WC, wax cabins needs to be much bigger and have to be ventilated (those who have privilege to work in trucks are on even better conditions).
But I agree, that on lower level, it's still anything but optimal.
But my point was different. I'm not arguing fluoro is not toxic. It is. My point is, that fluoro is used in pretty much anything, from clothing industy on, and if you look at consumption of it, ski waxes are probably less then 0.00000001% of fluoro consupmtion (most likely even less), and this minor thing is nowadays biggest environmental issue on world.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@primoz, ...that’s interesting that you feel the results were staged. Terrible if so. We rely on high integrity in research and it totally undermines accumulation of scientific knowledge if researchers lack basic values....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@valais2, it was more like PR material, proving their waxes are so safe, you can almost eat them. And when "research" is done by company producing certain product, proving that product is safe, it's kinda normal you don't trust it to be 100% true Especially as there were plenty of independant researches all claiming that waxing with fluoro is not so safe, as wax companies tried to prove.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| valais2 wrote: |
Having lived in a cave during Lockdown, I entirely missed the go no go FIS ban on flouro waxes. They are pretty nasty for n’vironment and fauna - and it’s clear that you put them on your skis and then particulates are left all over the mountain. I still have some bars of TOKO fluorinated waxes in the wax box, but for years I have not used flouro, preferring lower temp hydrocarbons such as Butta. In fact Butta wax smells so nice when you wax that I ignore the snow conditions and reach for it to get a fix off the vapours. Nice exchange scheme here, but only in N USA:
https://www.skimag.com/performance/this-company-is-getting-rid-of-toxic-ski-wax-one-can-at-a-time/ |
An excellent excuse to put in landfill the unused fluronated ski wax that I won years ago at a Warren Miller screening then.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@jabuzzard, ....yes its a real pain knowing that I have some in the wax box and have no idea what to do with the damned stuff. Def not chuck it in the bin.....
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @jabuzzard, ....yes its a real pain knowing that I have some in the wax box and have no idea what to do with the damned stuff. Def not chuck it in the bin..... |
I guess it depends on what your local council does with waste. I am perfectly happy that it is going into a clay-lined landfill site which is what will be happening in my case. Short of it being incinerated with a plasma torch that's the best option, and that would be a specialist waste disposal method and I am not aware it is used commercially anywhere. The TL;DR is that a plasma torch will basically atomize anything to its constituent elements at which point they recombine on cooling to simple 'safe' molecules. It's about the only method to make HFC's, dioxins etc. safe but would be very expensive.
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This topic came up in a news feed recently and wasn't aware of it.
I've got an old box of Toko general purpose wax probably 10 - 15 years old if not more and use it every year. Only just getting to the end of it.
No idea if it's the bad stuff. I guess it may be.
Slightly concerned about the toxic affect on humans, not just environmental impact. Each time I'm waxing the skis am I killing myself with wax fumes?
On the MTB side note, I've been using Squirt for years which is a wax based lube way better than dirt ingesting oils. Supposed to be eco and biodegradable.
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