 Poster: A snowHead
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For some time I was thinking about making a discussion about the topic of teaching as an independent ski instructor. And honestly, there are so many points, we can talk about, but I tried to put the whole topic too a few simple points.
1, What is your opinion on ski instructors, who operate independently from ski schools?
2, Are you a ski instructor, and have you ever tried to work in such a way, not just under the ski school?
3, In terms of the law. If we speak about the EU, in many countries this profession is strictly regulated. But this regulation does really differ from country to country. For example, in Austria, you need to get Lv4 to be able to work independently (In Wienna Lv 3 is enough). But go just a few hundred kilometers to the north, and instructors from the Czech are not required to reach Lv4. In fact, the equivalent of between Lv 2 and 3 is needed. But because he gets permission to teach in his country and according to EU law, the permission should be transferable to each of the other countries of the EU, at least for some minimum time like 3 weeks/year. In the case of the USA, I heard it is not possible at all to teach independently. The ski regions hold their monopoly on teaching. Is that true?4, In terms of ski regions.
4, Do ski regions have some contracts with the local ski schools, that only they can make business on their slopes? Or anybody, who can legally teach according to the local country law can go there with the client and teach? (If they buy their ski pass of course) As I was on Kitschteinhorn, I saw many kinds of instructors followed by their clients, or small groups of clients. And they were from many countries, not just Austria. This made me think. Wait a moment. Really can instructors from any EU country come here and teach their small groups on their holiday like this?
5, Nowadays, the wages of ski instructor in many countries does not reflect the amount of time, money, and effort you need to make to become at least Lv3, not mentioned Lv4. As I am observing the industry for some time, I understand that the way of becoming a "ski instructor entrepreneur" will be probably the way to go for many instructors, who do not want to put thousands of €, time, and effort into their education and then get lower wages than waiters in apres ski. (I really have nothing against waiters. Just example.). But it seems to me the regulations try to avoid this scenario at all costs. But, I even saw a commercial on Facebook for an app where you can book your independent ski instructor. So it should be somehow possible, to work like that, if I am not mistaken?
I will gladly hear your opinions 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Facebook advert is a scam. I tried it just to see. It offered me a 2 hour lesson in our village for something like CHF40, which is ridiculously low.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is the app we're talking about maison sport? If so, it's not a scam, although there may be people on there trying to scam of course, I don't know the mechanics of the app.
I did an IASI course back in September and the trainer on the course runs his own race coach company, but when he doesn't have courses running, uses maison sport to advertise his services as an instructor.
In the UK, you're allowed to teach indoors at Hemel, and presumably Chill Factore as it's the same parent company (don't know about about the others) as an independent once you're a L3 instructor. There's a yearly fee you pay to the centre, and can then teach unlimited amounts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In general to teach independently you need the highest qualification within the country where you're wanting to work. Mostly within Europe they recognise each others' certificates, to a degree, but you may still need to do a conversion course to get the local ticket before you're legal to work on your own, although in some countries, coming from some other countries, it may be granted on application without any conversion necessary.
No, ski regions don't limit instructing to local ski schools. But anyone working independently must be prepared for the locals to report them and get them inspected for proper qualifications.
Yes, wages for instructors in Ski Schools are crap, which is why I would never do it full time. Of course if you are able to work independently you would be able to both undercut the Ski School prices and keep a higher amount yourself, but in practice it's not half as simple as that, which is why so many properly-qualified still prefer to work within an established ski school. And bear in mind, of course, that they get paid considerably more than the part-qualified instructors.
Haven't seen the FB ad (I don't do FB) but yes, that sort of quote has to be a scam of some sort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Martin7125, to answer a couple of your questions:
| Quote: |
| 1, What is your opinion on ski instructors, who operate independently from ski schools? |
They are fantastic!!! (which will be explained by my next answer  )
| Quote: |
2, Are you a ski instructor, and have you ever tried to work in such a way, not just under the ski school?
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I have been working as an independant for going on 17 years now (18 this winter), following 9/10 seasons working for ski schools in various different parts of the world.
As you state, depending on country / region etc there are different requirements to be able to work legally as an independant (insert sound of can of worms opening here...!).
On your point in Q5, yes, for many countries, and with many ski schools the wages do not necessarily reflect the investment put into getting qualified, but this can be down to several factors: 1. ski instructing not being seen as a 'proper' job, 2. corporations/companies 'screwing' the workers, 3. clients not being prepared to pay enough to give the worker a realistic hourly rate.
In my experience probably the biggest disparity I saw in hourly rate vs cost charged to client by the ski school was in the US - I can't remember the numbers any more (this was last century...) but it was mind-boggling.
In simplistic terms the trade-off between ski school & independant is this:
Work for a ski school: turn up in the morning, do your job until it is time to finish, then you can switch off and forget about everything until tomorrow.
Work for yourself: turn up in the morning, do your job until it is time to finish on the slopes, now go home and answer emails, send invoices, chase up invoices, plan, advertise etc etc etc
All gross generalisation of course, and to flip things the other way, typically work for a ski school = not so much flexibility in choosing your work/clients, while working for yourself you can decide who/how/when you want to work.
There seems to be an ever-growing number of web-based apps (maison sport, skibro "bro!", find a guide etc etc etc) - have never used them myself so can't comment on them from a 'vendor' perspective.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
@Martin7125, to answer a couple of your questions:
| Quote: |
| 1, What is your opinion on ski instructors, who operate independently from ski schools? |
They are fantastic!!! (which will be explained by my next answer )
| Quote: |
2, Are you a ski instructor, and have you ever tried to work in such a way, not just under the ski school?
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I have been working as an independant for going on 17 years now (18 this winter), following 9/10 seasons working for ski schools in various different parts of the world.
As you state, depending on country / region etc there are different requirements to be able to work legally as an independant (insert sound of can of worms opening here...!).
On your point in Q5, yes, for many countries, and with many ski schools the wages do not necessarily reflect the investment put into getting qualified, but this can be down to several factors: 1. ski instructing not being seen as a 'proper' job, 2. corporations/companies 'screwing' the workers, 3. clients not being prepared to pay enough to give the worker a realistic hourly rate.
In my experience probably the biggest disparity I saw in hourly rate vs cost charged to client by the ski school was in the US - I can't remember the numbers any more (this was last century...) but it was mind-boggling.
In simplistic terms the trade-off between ski school & independant is this:
Work for a ski school: turn up in the morning, do your job until it is time to finish, then you can switch off and forget about everything until tomorrow.
Work for yourself: turn up in the morning, do your job until it is time to finish on the slopes, now go home and answer emails, send invoices, chase up invoices, plan, advertise etc etc etc
All gross generalisation of course, and to flip things the other way, typically work for a ski school = not so much flexibility in choosing your work/clients, while working for yourself you can decide who/how/when you want to work.
There seems to be an ever-growing number of web-based apps (maison sport, skibro "bro!", find a guide etc etc etc) - have never used them myself so can't comment on them from a 'vendor' perspective. |
Thank you for the nice reply.
I can imagine the difference between working for a ski school and working independently. I am a part-time job PGA coach in the golf industry. And I can imagine this is very similar to a ski instructor who works independently from a ski school.
Why did I ask the question in the first place? I also work in the ski industry as an instructor. My journey became 6 years ago. And I also have been skiing many for many seasons before I attempted to try my Lv1 course. (I was not a great skier but it was more than enough for Lv1 back then).
Right now I reached the level of being able to teach on my own. But just in my home country, where the regulations of the ski industry are much more benevolent. But still, it is a few weeks ago I start my business company (at first just for my own needs). And I can legally call this company a ski school too because I have the right to teach the clients skiing on my own.
But it gets a bit tricky. I wanted to become better and gain higher status at the national ski instructor level. For two reasons. I want to offer my future clients quality service. And as I am for those 6 years in the ski industry I can openly say, I even feel a bit embarrassed about such low regulations for ski instructors in the country I live in. But it is how it is. I am going to finish my Lv3 (Landeslehrer 2 to be specific, I have switched to the Austria system) the next season.
A few clients from the low number I have been already teaching in my hometown asked me about the possibility of put a group together and make a nice holiday with a ski instructor (me) somewhere in Austrian Alps. And that is the main reason for even beginning this topic. According to EU law, I should be able to teach my own clients in any other state of the EU if I can legally teach them here, at home. All business rights are transferable between states of the EU. (Unfortunately, my home license is very hardly transferable to international space) But still, I am a bit nervous that it can get wrong somehow. After all, I do not hold my Lv4 diploma. To be honest, not even finished full international Lv3 yet. Maybe some guys from the local ski school will spot it and they will not like it... I don t know honesty but I am a bit nervous.
The second point why I created this topic was my hunger for a better understanding of how teaching skiing as an independent instructor looks in different countries. Because one thing is the state law. But to be honest, this would be really a mess, because for example in Austria there is a different law for teaching skiing in each state in the country. So I wanted to better understand perhaps, how it really looks like in praxis, not in theory defined by the law book. Right now I am not afraid to say I understand this topic more than the average ski instructor but, to be honest, it is still confusing even after reading so many forums, information, and law books from different states.
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| Martin7125 wrote: |
| A few clients from the low number I have been already teaching in my hometown asked me about the possibility of put a group together and make a nice holiday with a ski instructor (me) somewhere in Austrian Alps. And that is the main reason for even beginning this topic. According to EU law, I should be able to teach my own clients in any other state of the EU if I can legally teach them here, at home. All business rights are transferable between states of the EU. |
You are quite right. Rob.rar of this forum is something of an expert on this but you are entitled to provide your services into another EU member state. In general if you bring your own clients and don't stay too long (<3 weeks) there is not an issue but you may need to make a declaration to the local authorities. You can even do this into highly restrictive France.
In France since the Simon Butler case a note has been sent to the prefects to be very careful prosecuting EU nationals working as ski instructors wrt to qualifications. The problem the French have is they only have one level of qualification and the EU directive says that anyone with one level below the top level can work... which means (as the govt official warns) a L1 can work in France if their home association will authorize them to work abroad and that "any court case is likely to fail". But that is of little interest to your situation.
In your case:
The Tirol welcomes visiting ski schools bringing their own clients. There is an online application form for level 2, level 3 or level 4 instructors. No more than 28 days per calendar year is allowed, and no more than 14 days for any one visit. Instructors must have liability insurance. They must also have sufficient German knowledge to ensure the safety of their guests and be entitled to carry out their profession independently.
Max number of guests is 12. Instructor must carry a first aid kit. Must be paid the same as local instructors.
Vorarlberg region will let you do 30 days as an L3 with no other constraints.
As a general rule though (as you found out)
You can provide services if you currently operate in another EU country. You need to show you are operating legally in another EU country (Proof of legal establishment), this would be your professional qualification plus something like a tax number. You will need insurance. Note, if the profession is unregulated (by law) in your home state you need 2 years full time practice (3 years if your qualification is not from an EU state). Italy take 2 years to mean 2 seasons for a ski instructor.
So for Austria I would head to a region that is less restrictive and make sure I do any required declarations.
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Certified in the Canadian system (CSIA) at Kicking Horse, BC (Level 1); Lake Louise, AB (Level 2); attended the Level 3 course & exam at Panorama, BC but failed.
Worked for Vail at Keystone in Kid's ski school and got my PSIA Levels 1 & 2. Was training towards my PSIA Level 3.
Had the opportunity to work for Niseko Base Snowsports (NBS) an off shoot of Ski Japan in Niseko, Hokkaido so took it.
Worked for the ski school for 2 winters doing group lessons primarily in my first winter and private lessons in my second winter.
My customers wanted me to teach the whole family (or group) together, regardless of age and ability but NBS weren't interested in offering that product.
So I went out on my own.
I was the first to offer this product/service in the Niseko Resort Area.
Now all companies offer it.
Able to work independently in Japan as long as you are certified; have insurance; and can get a company to sponsor you for the visa (1-year Skilled Labour).
I have complete autonomy and flexibility and get all the money earned (less taxes)
But for that my typical day starts at 7am clearing off the van and driving to my customers' accommodation
Driving my customers to the resort
Teaching them all day
Driving them home
Most nights driving and accompanying them to dinner
Every couple of days helping them with shopping
Most nights joining them for drinks
If I'm ill, I don't get paid
If the weather is rubbish and my customers choose not to ski, I don't get paid
Very happy with what I've created and returning for my 12th winter
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
In France since the Simon Butler case a note has been sent to the prefects to be very careful prosecuting EU nationals working as ski instructors wrt to qualifications.....will authorize them to work abroad and that "any court case is likely to fail". |
That's interesting to read. I have heard anecdotally from a few L3's who were controlled by the police, had their papers checked and then told to have a nice day after checking with their superiors... I didn't know of any official notes..
@Martin7125 Although a bit dated there was an easy to read user guide published by the EU which may help you. Specifically the section on Temporary Provision of Services
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I find this an interesting thread, having used several independent ski instructors, including Rob and Scott of "Inside Out Skiing". I am also a sailor and, over the years, done the RYA sailing courses with "independent" cruiser sailing instructors with the top level of qualification.
The lifestyle is similar. It's very hard work, carries big responsibilities and liabilities, requires high levels of knowledge and experience. Invariably they do it for love, not money. They can also supplement income, when things are quiet, with yacht deliveries - often being asked to "deliver" poorly maintained and equipped yachts on tricky passages. For not a lot of money.
However, the thing is, as a "customer", you know that your instructor is doing it for love, not money. And to be successful at that they need to be good communicators. And invariably somebody who loves what they do, and communicates well, is a joy to spend time with. If they're grouchy and moany and curt, they are not going to succeed, however technically able they are!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In France, as previously mentioned, you are not considered qualified until 'National' level = Level 4. There was an agreement between Italy, France, Austria and UK that we would all accept Level 4 from each country. Sadly the 'negotiators' of Brexit refused to agree to Brits being part of this. Thus, those of us who've been working in France for a long time, have Level 4 (or BASI 1 old money) and a certificate of Equivalence are eligible for a Carte Professionale. with this we can work alone, with a ski school or as part of a group.
As previously mentioned, if you are bringing your own clients and as part of a club, you can teach for a limited time in most resorts.
In practise, I've never been controlled out of school holiday times, and recently haven't been controlled at all as the inspectors all know who I am! I do carry my Carte Pro though.
So, while there are differences in other countries, it's just best to check it out, either if you're looking for lessons, or if you want to teach indpendently.
It's really sad for the British youngsters now that they won't have the chance to actually moven to another EU country and settle and work there without having to take the exams in that country. 
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@EasiskiLDA, nice to see you round here again!
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