 Poster: A snowHead
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Hard to believe that a local ski guide would go into Törli
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I heard all the bells and saw the helicopters yesterday as I left for the train station and assumed avi warnings and inspections rather than an active rescue in progress (The past two weeks there did seem to be a much higher number of people being lifted off the slopes especially considering how quiet it was - I even saw someone being lifted from the top of Stock just below the Himmeleck bar on Wednesday (IIRC) - can't think of a more benign spot tbh as it was before Grun that cuts across it from the top of the Gampen lift)
RIP to those who have passed away.
Everyone has to make their own decision as to whether to go out in whatever the conditions are, and I am not in a position to judge others, but like others, I do question the thought process though and this is something we can always improve on and learn
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Today when Schindler did open the security of piste manned the closed nets because some people would have gone down the Schindler Kar side still a 4 rating .
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| It is hard to comprehend the thought process that lead to a guide taking people into that area on Av Risk 4. There were many slides, albeit some triggered by the cannons, in the Mattun area. If Av Risk 4 did not faze them, then surely the sight of the slides should have made for pause to re-evaluate plans to go into the Törli. RIP |
Yes and no... Few of my friends are ski teachers and guides with highest Austrian qualification, which means they are officially also off-piste ski guides. Personally, I would have never trusted them with route selection, or with knowing conditions or terrain. I know how much education they had in this area (plain skiing tecnique and knowledge is different thing), so honestly, I'm not really surprised. Next to that, I have plenty of friends who have highest mountain guide qualifications, and well... I don't really trust their choice either, even though they have way more knowledge about avi hazards then ski teacher/guide, because they have their views scewed because of their job. But for both, it's quite understandable to push if you look at this a bit different way. It's their job, and if they say "it's to dangerous, we don't go out today" they don't earn anything. Do this for another 14 days, and you are not able to buy bread and milk on the end of the month. Also for guests, who don't have same luxury as I do, to live in middle of Alps and ski every day, it's somehow understandable to push. They come for holidays for that single week in winter, and they want to use it, not sitting inside drinking beer. Sure I'm saying mountain will still be there tomorrow, and if I'm smart, I'm gonna be there tomorrow too, so let's skip today and do something else instead of skiing. But first group (guides) are without day pay if they do this, and second group (guests) are going home tomorrow, so they won't have chance to be skiing tomorrow (well going out in terrain like this, you have plenty of chances you will never ever be skiing again, or doing anythingt at all again). So somehow it's understandable for me, but yeah, still super stupid thing to do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@primoz, I get the generic point you are making - human nature being what it is. The risk of dying is an unknown, but the need to buy food, rent, etc are known and immediate. That said, in this specific situation, the question keeps repeating to me… “the Törli, of all places; why??? A known death trap. Could a worse choice be made on an Av Risk 4 day?”.
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@primoz, I have been self employed and I understand some of the pressures, you are always concerned about how potential clients view you and building up a reputation, upset clients = no income. Also worse when there is only work for part of the year (even assuming a guide works in the summer, when there would be less work, a good part of the year is an "off" season) you need to maximise income when you can. However taking clients on one of the most dangerous routes in the Arlberg when there was an extremely high avi risk makes no sense. Surely the best guides give their clients the best possible experience based on the conditions and skill level of those clients? That is the best way to build a reputation and income. Trite and sad to say it now but there were better choices
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Just read that in Tyrol only there are about 7000 self-proclaimed "ski-guides".
Without sufficient training or diploma's....
Something about the 'free market'.....
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@primoz, points well made but could they not have gone somewhere safe(r) and still off piste? I mean if someone is contacting you specifically looking to go down a particular route but I would have thought most people with that level of motivation would actually just go without a guide and most people getting a guide just want to ski some nice snow they wouldn't find themselves with relative safety?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@scorpio, do you mean the couloirs skier's left off the lift? Would these not be pretty safe given previous mogulling? In avalanche terms its actually called the Arlberg effect!
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@8611, Schindlerkar is the small valley to the east of the summit that has the ski route running through it (accessed either at the end of the fence on the right from the "mid" station or from the top on the wide semi pisted section). The centre part by the route marker poles is usually semi pisted but the sides are extensive, popular, very easy to access off piste runs. These would be pretty dangerous in current circumstances.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@8611, As @munich_irish, has said , the east side was loaded and closed off ,however access to the couloirs Left of lift and subsequent slopes below were freely enjoyed . 
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@munich_irish, @8611, one thing is this pressure that you need to earn money. Other thing is what I wrote on beginning. Most of these guys I know, and have highest possible certification in Austria, which allows them to guide also off-piste, have absolutely no idea about snow safety. They are not able to make proper snow test, they have no idea how to properly read avalanche bulletin, or use transceiver, probe and showel etc. I'm not saying this guy was like this, maybe it was just stupid decission and some bad luck, I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't put too much trust into average "ski guide" to know what they are doing and to trust them my life. You would have expect different, as guys doing this as profession, having all appropriate certifications etc, should know these things better then average skier. From my experience it's just unrealistic expectation.
But to be clear... it's not everyone like this. I have plenty of friends from both, ski teachers and mountain guides who know things, are responsible and I would trust them. So it's not black and white and all are good or bad. PRoblem is, if you come somewhere where you don't know anyone, you have no idea what to expect. You might get some kamikaze with no knowledge and crazy suicidal wishes, or you might be lucky and get properly trained guide with plenty of experiences and lot of common sense. Problem is, you will really notice what you got only when it's too late.
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You know it makes sense.
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After a huge rescue effort they finally recoverd the bodys around midday yesterday...
I tend to agree with @primoz .its the temptation of the money , tips etc from private clients .
There are lots of guides who claim to be local (not just here in Arlberg) but Austrian resorts allover ..
The reality is the "Local" guides/Skit instructors come from allover Austria and do not neccesarily know anything about the specific local area's terrain... You may as well hire a Brit , Dutch, Danish or German Guide ..
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@munich_irish, @scorpio, ah!
Glad to hear those beautiful chutes and bowls remained enjoyed
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Poster: A snowHead
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Something must be wrong - I‘m agreeing with Stanton. I hire guides that have experiences in that area. Can remember a similar days years ago when I was out wit Graham Austick at Piste to powder. At two different locations in St Anton he checked the snowpack for over 10 mins and decided not to ski in even though many frenzied skiers were zooming past. Must admit at the time I thought he was being overcautious and thought „what‘s the point hiring a guide if we can’t ski the good stuff?“. Both slopes avalanched later that day.
People do crazy things when there is a lot of snow about. 8 people died in Austrian snow at the weekend. RIP. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
At two different locations in St Anton he checked the snowpack for over 10 mins and decided not to ski in even though many frenzied skiers were zooming past. Must admit at the time I thought he was being overcautious and thought „what‘s the point hiring a guide if we can’t ski the good stuff?“. Both slopes avalanched later that day.
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Yep. I hired a guide in Courmayeur a few years back, he turned up in the morning and basically said he didn't think it was safe and cancelled, thus losing around 400 euro. In consequence I kept even the sidepiste conservative and later that day there was a big slide in Val Veny, over ten were caught up in it and three died. I could see skiers heading off the side of the piste to access the area and a few years previously would have done the same without blinking but thankfully had a changed perspective, prob brought on by having kids and seeing too many well known skiers lost to accidents.
I had same experience with Piste to Powder - super conservative and I like that. I'm not really there to do "big" lines, just safe nice snow as priority. Aesthetics afterwards if they think it is safe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe posting in the Arlberg group I may get a bias answer anyway.. lol, but here goes. We decided to ski Ischgl this year, which is new to us. The girls were obsessed with the party scene they had heard about.. lol. Anyway.. I was thinking of getting a 5 of 7 days in Ischgl and then ski 2 days in the Arlberg. Drive is only 45 mins to an hour - would probably park in St Christoph / Stuben logically.
Snow depths I know don't always tell the whole story, but the Arlberg does appear to have a bit more snow. We arrive the 11th Feb - assuming no more new snow (14 day forecasts look dry, but I know this can change), do you think there could be better skiing to be had in the Arlberg and therefore it's not a silly idea? Or just be happy with what we have locally and stay in our valley?
Any thoughts?
Cheers... Alex
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Our group hired a guide and helicopter for the week of 18th.
I hope it all goes well...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Alex A, not sure that you really want to park in St Christoph or Stuben. You’ll have driven through St Anton if you do and it will add a fair bit to your travel time. Nasserein would be the closest car park. I suspect the main reason for splitting between the two would really be variety rather than snow conditions. There should be plenty of snow in both resorts. If you were willing to act as chauffeur it would also give those interested in partying a chance to try out some St Anton apres as well. Obviously the main downside is faffage, travel time, someone not drinking and slightly less economic for lift pass.
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@Alex A, if it doesn’t snow significantly again between now and your trip you’ll probably have a better chance of finding good (untracked) snow offpiste in Ischgl than Arlberg. There’s some really cool offpiste in Ischgl.
Re. the guide talk above… Bergführer > Skiführer… But I’d also add there are plenty of great foreign guides in the Arlberg and elsewhere too. Doesn’t matter where you were born if you’ve been guiding 10-20+ winters somewhere. Of all the guides I’ve skied with the one I trusted the most was Danish.
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@@nozawaonsen, thanks! Yeah, you hit the nail on the head in terms of variety I suppose. That's probably how to look at it. Thanks re heads up on the car park situation. All I was thinking was about how far you could get and come back all the way to St Anton again and if it was more chilled to start a bit further over towards the links to Zurs etc.. but agree, it adds time to the journey that probably isn't worth it. Lol.. yep - taxi Dad is my middle name 
@clarky999, Interesting.. I suppose in my head I'd almost resigned to the fact the off piste is likely too thin or trashed by the time we get there. The whole family can ski off piste and all have gear etc.. Good to hear Ischgl has some good options. Also suppose I can head to Galtur, Kappl and See..
It's definitely not a logical option in terms of costs.. need to think about this more I think. Thanks guys
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@Alex A, it’s certainly not a crazy idea if you are there for a while. And if you’ve not visited the Arlberg it’s well worth it. Like @clarky999, says there is less of an off piste frenzy in Ischgl. Worth thinking of a guide maybe?
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| @Alex A, it’s certainly not a crazy idea if you are there for a while. And if you’ve not visited the Arlberg it’s well worth it. |
Definitely! When driving from Innsbruck we usually park in Nasserein, and even arriving at 10:30/11 we can still easily complete the loop out to Zürs/Lech and back (we rarely stop for lunch though). There’s a Ruetz bakery by that car park to pick up a snack too.
Might be more faff than it’s worth but bus to Landeck and train to St Anton would be an option to enable apres too!
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speaking of guides... I'm out 19th March and depending on conditions would be booking a guide for some touring, any recommendations? Will be staying in Stuben, and likely 3 of us.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Of all the guides I’ve skied with the one I trusted the most was Danish.
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@clarky999, Me too......and definitely not the reckless "local" one I hired in Lech!! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Be a bit careful with the Nasserein car park, in previous years it has been full by around 09:30, though a couple of weekends back there were more spaces, it costs about €5 with a "Pay & Display" system. Fair sized car park at Alpe Rauz though would have thought just as quick to park at Nasserein and ski over.
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for the locals, what's the expectation for the snow conditions on the week of 20th February, considering that no more snowfall for the two upcoming weeks?
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You know it makes sense.
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@primoz, your posts above are deeply concerning. Who are these people exactly whose judgment in the off piste you don't trust? Are they ski school instructors, UAIGM mountain guides? Or other freelancers?
Tbh honest I have always just trusted the guide or instructor knows their stuff but maybe that is naive.. St Anton is a slightly scary place with respect to the almost aggressive nature of the powder fever (including individuals following guided groups into backcountry despite being told to F off)... but clearly finding good snow for clients which is not already thrashed is difficult in StA, yet it is the basis of many people's livelihoods. Many regular St Anton visitors know the backcountry and venture there regularly without guides, so guided groups need to go further to find snow. Maybe hand in hand with that goes a need to be little less reserved in search for snow
Maybe 99% time they are OK, but for me, while I crave ski adventure, a 1% risk of avalanche is too high
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So how can one stay safe in St Anton? Only go with guides you know? Are big companies like Arlberg Ski School and Piste2powder safe, or could you end up with instructor/guide with them like you describe above?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@peanuthead, none of people I was talking about is located or works anywhere near St. Anton, but hearing from friends in business, St. Anton is even worse when it comes to this then other places. Otherwise yes, they are ski teachers, owners of ski schools, IFMGA mountain guides etc.. Ok I guess it's also apropriate to say, that with all my life snow business one or the other way, I'm not really "average" skier, and with way more then 100 days a season (nowadays, before it was almost double that) out in backcountry in all sorts of conditions for ages, I probably know a bit more about snow, conditions, dangers etc. then average skier (or even average mountain guide, as ski teachers and ski guides don;t know a shi**t in general), especially average skier who flys to ski reasort for week of holidays and then don't see snow for rest of year.
But regardless of that, I really don't trust these guys, ski teachers and ski guides even less then mountain guides, and when I go skiing with these friends, I do my own assesments and my own decisions. Luckily for me, we go skiing as group of friends, with no "guide" or "boss" or someone being in charge otherwise, so everyone's opinion, regardless of official certification counts same. But as I wrote, even if I would hire guide, with this what I know, I would hire them to show me place if I wouldn't know it myself, but certainly not to hire them to feel safe.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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May I suggest when you go off piste and with someone you have never met before you should try to understand recent and previous weather and snow pack , take a mountain craft course there are several good company’s about , go with older local mountain guides , sign up to https://henrysavalanchetalk.com/ and see his blogs / podcasts etc staying safe in the mountains is your responsibility - knowledge means you can access wether a ski guide knows there stuff - stay safe have fun . RIP those who lost their lives this weekend
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@scorpio, I totally agree. Even if someone is planning to ski off-piste only few days, it's worth investing in this knowledge and it's worth knowing things. You should never blindly trust anyone, especially not someone you have absolutely no idea who he/she is and how much he/she knows. On the end, even if you are planning to ski off-piste only once, it can be enough to be last thing you ever did. So I would strongly suggest to question every decision, even so experienced guide makes and not blindly trust them.
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| boabski wrote: |
Gunnar retiring at the end of the season 
I've had so excellent apres watching him sing. Will be a loss to the town. |
How do you know he's retiring?, he's a legend in St Anton we've seen him dozens of times, and I know he's a big part of why people go to St Anton so it will be a sad day.
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| Quote: |
he's a big part of why people go to St Anton
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@xscreamer, Really? There's me thinking it was the excellent snow record, the lift system, lift served freeride skiing opportunities
Not seen him at Murmel, just heard him as walked past, used to watch him at Graibli but I don't particularly like Murmel, too cramped and stuffy.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Quote: |
he's a big part of why people go to St Anton
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@xscreamer, Really? There's me thinking it was the excellent snow record, the lift system, lift served freeride skiing opportunities
Not seen him at Murmel, just heard him as walked past, used to watch him at Graibli but I don't particularly like Murmel, too cramped and stuffy. |
I don't think he ever played at the Griabli. He started off in the Piccadilly, then the Kandahar (or whatever its name is these days), then the Murrmel.
It will be a shame if he is retiring though, he's been part of the apres-ski scene for as long as I've been going to St Anton since 1990 and we always go to listen to him when he's playing. It wouldn't affect our decision to go to St Anton though, because as you mention there are many other more important reasons why people go there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Today, like yesterday, started out foggy, but cleared to a stunningly beautiful, bluebird day. The (very) low temps mean that the snow is holding up nicely: either loose powder, or chalky, depending on traffic. Crowds not an issue - it is actually fairly quiet.
Our pick for the day was the west wall of Schindler Kar. Nice, chalky bumps. Bachseite was not too shabby either! Yesterday’s choice was the side piste lines off Riffel 1.
Top of Kapall this morning:
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It has already been pointed out about the pressure on guides to find decent conditions for their clients.
I have been skiing off piste for over forty years and during that time, the number of people skiing off piste has increased phenomenally. That has resulted in the easily accessible and relatively safe off piste being skied out in no time. Guides therefore may be tempted to push the boundaries more than they should.
Having said that, I have skied in St Anton many times and I amazed that a guide took a client to that area where the recent accident happened.
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FAQ
