This video will show my progress and there is still a lot to do.
The funny thing is that when i made this run, it felt like i was doing everything right, but the video clearly shows that I'm hardly doing anything at all.
In other words i need to overdo things in my mind for them to be noticeable at all.
It seems like my left turns are better than my right turns. Do you agree ?
What exercises do you recommend from this point on ?
What I see, is a small Stem to initiate every turn. This is likely due to being too static, not committing to the Turning Ski early enough and balancing against it through the turn as you tip it on edge. Without doing this, you resort to a slight stem to start the turn. Going slowly on a gentle run will exacerbate the problem, as it's more difficult to keep skis parallel, with any faults in technique highlighted.
It looks like there is a slope going from left to right which makes it difficult to assess whether your right and left turns are symmetrical.
From what I can tell, you are well balanced with your hands in front.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The curse of too much snowplough (IMHO) or some would say, not enough snowplough.
Took me years to get rid of it and the vast majority of skiers have this problem. G’luck!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Old Fartbag wrote:
What I see, is a small Stem to initiate every turn. This is likely due to being too static, not committing to the Turning Ski early enough and balancing against it through the turn as you tip it on edge. Without doing this, you resort to a slight stem to start the turn. Going slowly on a gentle run will exacerbate the problem, as it's more difficult to keep skis parallel, with any faults in technique highlighted.
It looks like there is a slope going from left to right which makes it difficult to assess whether your right and left turns are symmetrical.
From what I can tell, you are well balanced with your hands in front.
I'm impressed, how can you even spot that?
But you are right i do tend give the ski small stem to start the turn. But i always thought that this was the Clutch / accelerator Darren Turner speaks about?
The curse of too much snowplough (IMHO) or some would say, not enough snowplough.
Took me years to get rid of it and the vast majority of skiers have this problem. G’luck!
I had my first ski lessons before carving, i will settle for too much
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Do you still take lessons? If not, or you just don't see the benefit of group lessons then can I suggest a couple of 1-2-1 sessions with a coach on your next trip. They'll very quickly identify what your next steps are and what exercises will push you up the learning curve. Then you can practice on your own between sessions. I would say that your turns (while solid) look tentative. The next step is finding the real power of the edge to hold you on a turn in a dynamic situation. It's about trust and commitment. I learned this from being coached to do flying V's manuy years ago but I don't know if this still an exercise that's used. Good luck!
After all it is free
After all it is free
First of all this is looking good, you are starting to make nice rounded turns for the most part and are quite well balanced. Well done! @BackSeater,
@Old Fartbag, is right, you do have a small stem at the start of each turn. This is very common, and can become a bad habit that is hard to fix unless you address it early (it sort of works so becomes ingrained). I often see this in skiers that are to some extent self taught. Rather than focussing on the causes, focus instead on the result you are looking for:
1. Have more patience at the start of the turn. The goal is to make SMOOTH progressive turns, so don't be in a rush to get through the turn. Try and wait for both skis to come round.
2. LISTEN - your should hear a smoothly progressive increase in the noise of your skis on the snow. Quiet at the start, and continually increasing as the turn progresses. Think shuuUUUUuuhh.
3. MOVE - your body should be dynamic throughout the turn. Everything needs to be progressive so avoid being in a static body position at any point, think more about constantly changing your body position smoothly throughout the turn.
Good luck with your progression!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
BackSeater wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
What I see, is a small Stem to initiate every turn. This is likely due to being too static, not committing to the Turning Ski early enough and balancing against it through the turn as you tip it on edge. Without doing this, you resort to a slight stem to start the turn. Going slowly on a gentle run will exacerbate the problem, as it's more difficult to keep skis parallel, with any faults in technique highlighted.
It looks like there is a slope going from left to right which makes it difficult to assess whether your right and left turns are symmetrical.
From what I can tell, you are well balanced with your hands in front.
I'm impressed, how can you even spot that?
But you are right i do tend give the ski small stem to start the turn. But i always thought that this was the Clutch / accelerator Darren Turner speaks about?
If you look at the second video, it is in fact a problem that "Clutch/Accelerator is trying to correct.
Lifting the tail of the D/hill ski prior to turning (and keeping it lifted through the whole turn, until it becomes the U/hill ski) will tell you what is going on. Without making the correct movements to initiate the turn (proper commitment), you simply won't be able to make the turn (especially if doing a longer turn and skiing across the slope at a shallow angle).
Remember, when going slowly on a shallow slope, lots of patience is required, as the skis need to have time to go from One set of edges -> Flat and down the Fall line -> To the other set of edges. If this process is rushed (trying to go directly from one set of edges to the other), you will trip up (if not using a Stem). Turning takes longer on shallow slopes at slow speeds.
That little stem has become a "Safety Blanket" in your skiing, as it allows you to turn without making the correct movements.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
philhitch wrote:
Do you still take lessons? If not, or you just don't see the benefit of group lessons then can I suggest a couple of 1-2-1 sessions with a coach on your next trip. They'll very quickly identify what your next steps are and what exercises will push you up the learning curve. Then you can practice on your own between sessions. I would say that your turns (while solid) look tentative. The next step is finding the real power of the edge to hold you on a turn in a dynamic situation. It's about trust and commitment. I learned this from being coached to do flying V's manuy years ago but I don't know if this still an exercise that's used. Good luck!
No i don't take lessons. I used to take group lessons many years ago, but I never gained anything from them, so i decided to teach myself. I can see now that this is harder than i thought. Next time i will try 1-2-1 for a few hours.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
BackSeater wrote:
Next time i will try 1-2-1 for a few hours.
Two things I have learned over the years:
1. You cannot teach yourself to ski effectively.
2. You won't believe how much the right Instructor will bring on your skiing in a Private Lesson. You will be left with great feedback and stuff to work on, with drills to ingrain it.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Old Fartbag wrote:
If you look at the second video, it is in fact a problem that "Clutch/Accelerator is trying to correct.
Lifting the tail of the D/hill ski prior to turning (and keeping it lifted through the whole turn, until it becomes the U/hill ski) will tell you what is going on. Without making the correct movements to initiate the turn (proper commitment), you simply won't be able to make the turn (especially if doing a longer turn and skiing across the slope at a shallow angle).
Remember, when going slowly on a shallow slope, lots of patience is required, as the skis need to have time to go from One set of edges -> Flat and down the Fall line -> To the other set of edges. If this process is rushed (trying to go directly from one set of edges to the other), you will trip up (if not using a Stem). Turning takes longer on shallow slopes at slow speeds.
That little stem has become a "Safety Blanket" in your skiing, as it allows you to turn without making the correct movements.
1. I assume you are talking about Javelin turns, Correct ?
2. In my mind it goes like this: I need to balance on the uphill ski, still on edge, before the turn, and gently roll it over to initiate the turn. That will feel counter intuitive at least until the ski will start to turn. Correct ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
boom!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
BackSeater wrote:
1. I assume you are talking about Javelin turns, Correct ?
2. In my mind it goes like this: I need to balance on the uphill ski, still on edge, before the turn, and gently roll it over to initiate the turn. That will feel counter intuitive at least until the ski will start to turn. Correct ?
On point one - It is not a Javelin Turn. It is known as a Stork Turn.
On point two - Yes - You lift the tail of the D/Hill ski. This forces you to initiate the turn from the U/Hill ski, while still on its Little Toe edge. On longer turns, getting the ski to roll off its old edge, requires you to move forward and across the skis. Feel for when the skis are flat...even allowing them to remain flat and going down the Fall Line for a second or two, before rolling them onto the new edges.
To drop the Stem, you need to give the skis time to go flat and point downhill, before they roll onto the new edges.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
zikomo wrote:
First of all this is looking good, you are starting to make nice rounded turns for the most part and are quite well balanced. Well done! @BackSeater,
@Old Fartbag, is right, you do have a small stem at the start of each turn. This is very common, and can become a bad habit that is hard to fix unless you address it early (it sort of works so becomes ingrained). I often see this in skiers that are to some extent self taught. Rather than focussing on the causes, focus instead on the result you are looking for:
1. Have more patience at the start of the turn. The goal is to make SMOOTH progressive turns, so don't be in a rush to get through the turn. Try and wait for both skis to come round.
2. LISTEN - your should hear a smoothly progressive increase in the noise of your skis on the snow. Quiet at the start, and continually increasing as the turn progresses. Think shuuUUUUuuhh.
3. MOVE - your body should be dynamic throughout the turn. Everything needs to be progressive so avoid being in a static body position at any point, think more about constantly changing your body position smoothly throughout the turn.
Good luck with your progression!
Thank you
Many years ago i was thought to always be on edge, the best way from one edge to the other was to stand tall, when flat, press down hard and pivot the ski around. My skis was 2 meters long back then.
Imagine doing that while being on the back seat. My thighs was on fire after one hour. After 3 days i had to go backwards down the stairs.
I think i have some unlearning to do, but I'm so happy just to be balanced. I can finally move on
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BackSeater wrote:
Many years ago i was thought to always be on edge, the best way from one edge to the other was to stand tall, when flat, press down hard and pivot the ski around. My skis was 2 meters long back then.
Imagine doing that while being on the back seat. My thighs was on fire after one hour. After 3 days i had to go backwards down the stairs.
I think i have some unlearning to do, but I'm so happy just to be balanced. I can finally move on
Back in the day, "Straight" skis had a Sidecut that gave a radius of around 65m. A modern Piste ski has a radius of 14 - 16m.
On old school skis, the turn was initiated by Unweighting....that was mostly Up-Unweighting, but could be Down-Unweighting. There was a lot of foot-steering involved and carving was very skilful and required high speed, with all the weight on the downhill ski.
This is now redundant. Modern Piste skis have so much sidecut, that rolling them onto their new edges is enough to start the turn. Up and Down movements are unnecessary and unhelpful.
An Instructor will guide you through the movements necessary to adapt to modern technique.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thank you for your time, i got something to work on now.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
After 3 days i had to go backwards down the stairs.
I’ll definitely use that tip after my next beasting. Ta.
To drop the Stem, you need to give the skis time to go flat and point downhill, before they roll onto the new edges.
+1
Be the ski.
At one with the mountain.
Don’t fear the fall-line, embrace it.
#ZenSkiing
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
AL9000 wrote:
Quote:
To drop the Stem, you need to give the skis time to go flat and point downhill, before they roll onto the new edges.
+1
Be the ski.
At one with the mountain.
Don’t fear the fall-line, embrace it.
#ZenSkiing
I missed that one, but it makes sense. I think I do the stem to control speed, to get quicker in to the turn. I will try to embrace the fall-line from now on
IMV You don't. You use it to make initiating the turn easier. Control comes from the last third of the turn. You either do it by holding onto the turn longer, or skidding more. At this stage, you should be trying to get control through turn shape. Think smooth linked Ss.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I will try to embrace the fall-line from now on
Be sure it’s a Parisian embrace…hips first!
It’ll fix it, guaranteed.
After all it is free
After all it is free
This video covers a lot of what was discussed above - especially patience at the start of the turn and early weight transfer.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Congratulations on your progress.
You’re definitely moving away from the back seat, but you’re not out of it yet. This is why you’re having to stem to initiate turns.
Concentrate on flexing your ankles and pressurising the front of your boot. It’s probably worth getting some private lessons to help with this.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Back in the day, "Straight" skis had a Sidecut that gave a radius of around 65m. A modern Piste ski has a radius of 14 - 16m.
On old school skis, the turn was initiated by Unweighting....that was mostly Up-Unweighting, but could be Down-Unweighting. There was a lot of foot-steering involved and carving was very skilful and required high speed, with all the weight on the downhill ski.
This is now redundant. Modern Piste skis have so much sidecut, that rolling them onto their new edges is enough to start the turn. Up and Down movements are unnecessary and unhelpful.
An Instructor will guide you through the movements necessary to adapt to modern technique.
This is interesting. I still use the up and down now, but totally recognise the ability to be 'lazy' on piste and just turn by pushing onto your edges. I find going up and down it still has it's uses, esp in churned up snow or in powder for example where you can't use you edges. But maybe I don't need to...! Time for a lesson
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
MaxiD wrote:
Quote:
This is now redundant. Modern Piste skis have so much sidecut, that rolling them onto their new edges is enough to start the turn. Up and Down movements are unnecessary and unhelpful.
An Instructor will guide you through the movements necessary to adapt to modern technique.
This is interesting. I still use the up and down now, but totally recognise the ability to be 'lazy' on piste and just turn by pushing onto your edges. I find going up and down it still has it's uses, esp in churned up snow or in powder for example where you can't use you edges. But maybe I don't need to...! Time for a lesson
Up and down movements are still a vital part of skiing, and I doubt you'd find any instructor anywhere that would tell you otherwise. Even when you're being "lazy" there is still an element of up and down, although you may be totally unaware of it. All else apart, moving your CoM/weight from one ski to the other means it's going up wrt to one of them and down wrt the other.
When travelling faster, fast carving rather than just "cruising" but still feeling like you're "just" rolling the skis to change edge, the whole turn can be made much more effective if you're able to recognise and control when and how these movements occur. Generally (hopefully) an instructor is going to be able to recognise where you can improve by making more or less movement at different times or with different parts of the body.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Up and down movements are still a vital part of skiing, and I doubt you'd find any instructor anywhere that would tell you otherwise.
I thought Instructors spent a lot of their time teaching old-school skiers like me, to stop bobbing up and down like a cork on the ocean.
Do Instructors still promote Up Unweighting, when teaching Piste skiing? When I said the technique was redundant - I meant it was no longer necessary/the best way to achieve turn initiation (On Piste).
If I implied that Up-Unweighting should "never" be used, that is my bad. The point I was trying to make, is I think that, as the primary means of turning On Piste, it is generally seen as "Old School"...and if that is the way you always turn, then it is worth working on greatly lessoning it/removing it (for general Piste skiing), as it is detrimental to getting the most out of the skis. I should know, as it creeps into my skiing unnoticed, when not paying attention.
I am working on remaining Flexed through transition - which (when I manage to do it correctly), means very little Up and Down movement.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 2-06-22 11:02; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Old Fartbag wrote:
BackSeater wrote:
1. I assume you are talking about Javelin turns, Correct ?
2. In my mind it goes like this: I need to balance on the uphill ski, still on edge, before the turn, and gently roll it over to initiate the turn. That will feel counter intuitive at least until the ski will start to turn. Correct ?
On point one - It is not a Javelin Turn. It is known as a Stork Turn.
On point two - Yes - You lift the tail of the D/Hill ski. This forces you to initiate the turn from the U/Hill ski, while still on its Little Toe edge. On longer turns, getting the ski to roll off its old edge, requires you to move forward and across the skis. Feel for when the skis are flat...even allowing them to remain flat and going down the Fall Line for a second or two, before rolling them onto the new edges.
To drop the Stem, you need to give the skis time to go flat and point downhill, before they roll onto the new edges.
I found that there's another useful drill to prepare for this one; and that's simple traverses with uphill ski horizontal and off the ground, then repeat tapping the tip of the ski on the snow as you go, then repeat tapping the heel. Then repeat all of that with the downhill ski off the ground. Once I'm doing that with reasonable success, I have a good feel for where back, neutral and forward positions are and I'm able to focus on the turny bit of the stork turn, not the balance on one ski bit.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
I thought Instructors spent a lot of their time teaching old-school skiers like me, to stop bobbing up and down like a cork on the ocean
You still, definitely, need up and down both to regulate pressure on the skis and to remain in balance. What you don't (and didn't !) need is a quick bob upwards at the start of the turn.. hope that helps.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Up and down movements are still a vital part of skiing, and I doubt you'd find any instructor anywhere that would tell you otherwise.
I thought Instructors spent a lot of their time teaching old-school skiers like me, to stop bobbing up and down like a cork on the ocean.
Honestly, it's about half and half. So yes, there are folks for whom we need to calm down their tendency to want to jump every turn, usually using the upper body to do so, with the inevitable sudden rearward weight shift and lifting of the inside ski that accompanies it.
But that is most often the case in older skiers with lots of experience but little technique, they've been doing it that way for years and need to re-learn a lot of the basics from scratch. I couldn't possibly comment as to whether this applies to you
Equally though, it is something that we teach as part of the normal curriculum (e.g. BASI Central Theme), and the movements are often missing, or more frequently mistimed, in intermediate skiers, so we do sometimes need to focus on it on an individual level.
Old Fartbag wrote:
Do Instructors still promote Up Unweighting, when teaching Piste skiing?
Maybe some do, but the Swiss and British systems certainly discourage the use of that concept; at best it's not really helpful, at worst can confuse the hell out of some people. From the first lessons we'll be trying to get students to feel that they can rotate their skis much more easily while moving their body up and down, such that it becomes an inherent part of their skiing, and while that may be due to something that could be described using your terminology, it's not really necessary to give it a name.
Old Fartbag wrote:
When I said the technique was redundant - I meant it was no longer necessary/the best way to achieve turn initiation (On Piste).
In BASI they talk about long turns and short turns, the Swiss calls them skidded or carved turns (Virages Deschirées, Coupées). Short turns still actively require a positive up and down movement, long turns less so - the movement is still there is lesser degree but may be seen as an outcome rather than an input by some people.
So no, it's not really redundant, just not so much a focus as (you say) it used to be.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ski wrote:
Quote:
I thought Instructors spent a lot of their time teaching old-school skiers like me, to stop bobbing up and down like a cork on the ocean
You still, definitely, need up and down both to regulate pressure on the skis and to remain in balance. What you don't (and didn't !) need is a quick bob upwards at the start of the turn.. hope that helps.
Agreed - I was using a bit of poetic licence to make a point. I was taught to plant the pole and up unweight.....and as you got better, foot steering, with a strong forward and across motion helped minimize that.
In modern skiing - surely if you use Flexing through Transition, it almost eliminates up and down movement? Demonstrated here from 10:55
I am not trying to be argumentative - but making sure my understanding is correct.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Old Fartbag wrote:
In modern skiing - surely if you use Flexing through Transition, it almost eliminates up and down movement? Demonstrated here at 10:55
Watch the video again closely - the part you highlight is good for this, but it's much more apparent elsewhere - focus on the distance between the hip and the snow. Is it constant? No, it is not. Is there a regular pattern through the turn where it increases and decreases? Yes, there is.
This is the upward and downward movement that we're talking about, much more subtle than perhaps you're used to, but quite clearly evident from that clip.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
In modern skiing - surely if you use Flexing through Transition, it almost eliminates up and down movement? Demonstrated here at 10:55
Watch the video again closely - the part you highlight is good for this, but it's much more apparent elsewhere - focus on the distance between the hip and the snow. Is it constant? No, it is not. Is there a regular pattern through the turn where it increases and decreases? Yes, there is.
This is the upward and downward movement that we're talking about, much more subtle than perhaps you're used to, but quite clearly evident from that clip.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I suppose the point I'm making - is that the upward force at Transition has to go somewhere. There are 2 options: Either the upper body will extend upwards to allow the skis to flatten; or the knees will flex deeply, like you are skiing over an invisible mogul, to absorb the upward pressure - which has the effect of dramatically reducing upward movement - and in turns when the hips aren't getting so close to the snow, if the skier is observed from the waist up, the head is remaining pretty level (a bit like a good bump skier who is fully absorbing the bumps).
@13:38 he demonstrates the double Pole Drag exercise, which ensures minimal up and down movements....but I agree there is some, especially when the skis are put on bigger angles. Where the lowered body position and deep knee flex at transition are sufficient to keep the hips a consistent height from the snow - like the shallower turns towards the end of a slalom - then there is virtually no upward movement that I can see.
But that is most often the case in older skiers with lots of experience but little technique, they've been doing it that way for years and need to re-learn a lot of the basics from scratch. I couldn't possibly comment as to whether this applies to you
Great reply and nicely explained.
Re the above: I learned in the early 70s and took lots of lessons in the 80s/90s - and was taught what was needed to turn 2m straight skis. Back then, there was no issue with the A-Frame (which was probably the hardest thing for me to minimise). Short Turns were always Short Swings, as the Turn Radius of the skis was too large to do anything else.
Currently - Unless going for high speed, high edge angle turns (long leg/short leg), I would have a skiing stance on the narrower end of the spectrum.....probably a hang over from those days.
With the advent of carving skis, I was lucky enough to have some great Instructors in Val D'Isere, who guided me through the necessary changes - which I constantly have to work on. For a holiday skier, I'm OK, as I have put a lot of work in. My skiing could probably described as reasonably modern, with a dash of Old School thrown in.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
@13:38 he demonstrates the double Pole Drag exercise, which ensures minimal up and down movements....but I agree there is some, especially when the skis are put on bigger angles. Where the lowered body position and deep knee flex at transition are sufficient to keep the hips a consistent height from the snow - like the shallower turns towards the end of a slalom - then there is virtually no upward movement that I can see.
Yes, it's difficult to see, but if you look at his thighs you can clearly see that the height between hip and knee, in the skier's plane of movement, is indeed changing, i.e. that there is still some up and down going on within the body, although not necessarily wrt the snow surface.
Quote:
Currently - Unless going for high speed, high edge angle turns (long leg/short leg), I would have a skiing stance on the narrower end of the spectrum.....probably a hang over from those days.
TBH the wide stance which was pushed a lot in the early days of carving isn't something we often need to work on these days. Yes, there are still some folk who try to keep the boots touching all the time, and this can lead to problems, so in these cases we'll try to address that, but conversely there are perhaps more instances, particularly in moguls or deep soft snow, where people have their skis too far apart. The latter is usually caused by something else, often weight too far back, so it's not always a simple fix, but there's no hard and fast rule about ski width - only if it's causing a problem, or a change could bring about an improvement, is it something we'd try to 'correct'.
In other words, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
@Chaletbeauroc, Again, thank you for the trouble you are taking to explain what you mean.
I think we pretty much agree - and it often comes down to semantics - and the difficulty of fully getting across exactly what you (as in I) want to say in a Forum Post, without making it unreadably long. My posts are often long enough as it is.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ali Ross had some words about "up unweighting" well before modern skis.
"...It is conventionally accepted and taught that a parallel turn is initiated by unweighting the skis.
...My view is that if, up to now, we have required the ski to be on its edge, with pressure applied to it before we can turn effectively,
then it does not appear to make a great deal of sense to argue that weight should be actively taken off the ski in order to initiate a turn."[1]
Instructors at that time may have learned to bounce up and down, but even with old skool skis it wasn't necessary.
On that, in powder, amongst expert skiers, you still get maybe 1/3 of people who "bounce".
---
[1] Ali Ross on Skiing, Page 53. 1987
After all it is free
After all it is free
philwig wrote:
Ali Ross had some words about "up unweighting" well before modern skis.
"...It is conventionally accepted and taught that a parallel turn is initiated by unweighting the skis.
...My view is that if, up to now, we have required the ski to be on its edge, with pressure applied to it before we can turn effectively,
then it does not appear to make a great deal of sense to argue that weight should be actively taken off the ski in order to initiate a turn."[1]
Instructors at that time may have learned to bounce up and down, but even with old skool skis it wasn't necessary.
On that, in powder, amongst expert skiers, you still get maybe 1/3 of people who "bounce".
---
[1] Ali Ross on Skiing, Page 53. 1987
I actually think the word "Bounce", is unhelpful....and really only applies to Powder - and even then, it wasn't the only way to ski powder, as you could extend your legs through the turn and then let the pressure of the snow push the skis up allowing a change of edges. This was an extension and retraction of the legs with no bouncing.
Now that you mention Ali Ross - who was way ahead of his time - I remember him saying saying that the decrease in height was simply the result of the hips dropping to the inside of the turn; and the increase in height was just what happened when you decreased the edge angle and prepared to start the next turn ie. It was not going Up and Down for the sake of it, but a result of the necessary movements.
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Correct; I didn't quote that but, but essentially that's it.
Yes, "bounce" is the term for the powder style, I was just being provocative. However I remember people doing little bounces on the dry slope, which was a specific style of up-unweighting I recall clearly. I don't recall that being taught though. My point was in summary that old skool skis didn't require old skool style and many of us knew it, although very few instructors.
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I remember being told to bounce by an ancient, Swiss instructor on a SCGB trip in Klosters years ago. I had no idea what he was talking about and the results were commensurate with my comprehension.
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