I will start with this 45 Minute discussion between two top instructors....which is not Instruction per se, but high level concepts and how they go about achieving and analysing them.
They cover a lot of the stuff Rob talks about, namely Dynamic Balance, Fore/Aft Balance through the turn, the importance (and difficulty of teaching) of the start of the turn and even "the Invisible Bump" at edge change. They give examples to illustrate the concepts being talked about - and the need to give the "Why", as well as the "What" and the "How".
If anyone has anything similar, feel free to post.
I understand that when you ski across a 35 deg slope it is effectively flat, then as you turn into the fall line it becomes ever steeper up to the apex then it flattens out again to the end of the turn. Is it a bump or a curved step though? I can't see at what point you ski back up the hill again. Isn't it really a series of half bumps one half bump (a curved step) below the other? Are they saying a bad skier is too far back when going over the step then too far forward when it flattens out again?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@DB, As I understand it (and I could be wrong)....as the forces build during the turn, you have 2 options ie. Let the release of those forces throw you up; or soften the legs and let your knees come up in front (like absorbing a bump), before letting them extend again (short turns), or outside leg extends as in GS turns (Long Leg/Short Leg) - which stops the Up Movement, quickens the transition and keeps better snow contact.
They are saying that the fault seen in Beginners is that they are often too far back; but the fault seen in Intermediate/More Advanced skiers (due to be constantly told to "Get Forward"), is they are often too far forward at the end of the turn, so they are not centred and there is no controlling pressure at the tail of the ski to stop it washing out.
If you want any more detail than that, you need input from the Pros on here.
Although academic, I find these questions interesting - even if I haven't a full understanding.
As part of the the same group of blogs - At the start of this one, it shows how the movements of the Virtual Bump, matches those of an actual bump.
I like toppling. Took me a long while to realise that getting an edge & weight on the outside ski early during the start of the turn is best initiated by starting to get your weight off the other ski before the end of the previous turn.
Turning the inside knee over helps prevent A-framing too. At higher speeds I try to get the inner part of my inside knee up to the armpit.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 8-12-20 18:29; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@DB, I think it's in the Video below, where they discuss the importance of skiing from the ground up, tipping from the feet, then the knees - to form a solid platform, from which to allow the hips to drop inside. If the focus is simply dumping the hip inside, then you may get a sort of "Park and Ride". They emphasise that getting this right should be the priority before getting the hip inside the turn.
It is also interesting to see how these guys go about analysing skiers in Long and Short turns.....but boy, does it make you realise where you are on the skiing scale.
To me (non-instructor) it looks like all the students are blocking things with their inside leg. Concentrating too much on getting their hips into the turn without rolling in their inside knee. It's as if they have this set position that they have to get to and then hold that position which results in parking. It's two positions (left and right) that you flow between at a constant speed, not one static positions for each side. As things are being blocked by their inside leg their slightly too far back ärses are swinging them around at the end of the turn causing them sometimes to lose their tails.
Look at the feet. The inside foot of the students hardly rises in relation to the outside foot (maybe upto boot height). With the instructors the inside foot rises up to around the knee which is approx twice as far. (as can be see in your carving tips clip above). If they concentrated on getting their inside knee over and letting the forces push the inside knee up towards their armpit then the hips would follow. Their hips would be inside the turn but their bottoms would be slightly more forward.
Suspect some students are getting forward at the end of the turn because they know they will be spun out if they put pressure on their tails - this means they can't get in the right position for the next turn. They can't use the rebound of the ski to get them from turn to turn. They are hanging onto the ride rather than using the skis to pop them from one turn to the other.
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@DB, I agree.
The pole drag drill, by those using it, seems to be causing as many issues as it solves.
Fascinating stuff.
I seem to have a geeky interest in theory and assessing other people's skiing - I think it helps my own skiing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Old Fartbag
Big thank you from me for starting this thread!
I've watched loads of videos and most were nowhere near as useful to me as these are.
Hope you keep up the good work here!
Regards,
FG
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Fat George wrote:
@Old Fartbag
Big thank you from me for starting this thread!
I've watched loads of videos and most were nowhere near as useful to me as these are.
Hope you keep up the good work here!
Regards,
FG
You're Welcome....glad you found it useful.
It's good to see that it's not just me (and DB) who like looking at this stuff.
Given I'm not skiing this year - this has to make up for it.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@DB, Liked the hip hike discussion with Tom G. I agree with all of that analysis and understanding of the underlying issues. gave up on episode 6 as other than the Austrian examiner I wasn't seeing what the other two guys were
Im a big fan of keeping the inside hip level by emphasising a "high" inside hip, not sure I like the imagery of "hiking" as it could become a disjointed "move" as opposed to a progressive change in the joints..
To bring it closer to home here is a little video showing an instructor training at Hemel and we worked on the same thing... Useful to compare and contrast in differing environments...
This video is looking a bit closer at the Short Turn - and by analysing one skier, shows in their case, how getting one element wrong (probably due to a misunderstanding by that skier), triggers a series of compensations that are not helpful.
@DB, Liked the hip hike discussion with Tom G. I agree with all of that analysis and understanding of the underlying issues. gave up on episode 6 as other than the Austrian examiner I wasn't seeing what the other two guys were
Im a big fan of keeping the inside hip level by emphasising a "high" inside hip, not sure I like the imagery of "hiking" as it could become a disjointed "move" as opposed to a progressive change in the joints..
To bring it closer to home here is a little video showing an instructor training at Hemel and we worked on the same thing... Useful to compare and contrast in differing environments...
Yes I couldn't always work out what the other two were adding to the discussion in Episode 6 either.
"Hiking the hips", keeping them "high" or "level" I suppose are all descriptions aimed at preventing the student from dropping or twisting the hips. I like "level" the most but have often thought "level" to what - the piste or to gravity or to a combination of various things including the centrfugal force developed in the turn?
If shoulders and hips make a box and this box is full of beer, are we trying to get the "beer box" round the turn while spilling as little as possible? (while taking the piste as the reference). Maybe it's easier to concentrate on shoulders (without side crunching) rather than hips as it's easier to sense where your shoulders in relation to the piste than your hips.
Nice video of the trainee ski instructor improvement. Do you just train ski instructors or can anyone book a lesson with you?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@DB, I tend to think of trying to keep the pelvis level to the snow. Concentrating on the shoulders alone with students tends to put them into contorted positions if the hip joint isn't where it should be. As edge angles, speed and forces increase the pelvis will naturally counter slightly and the hip joint will tilt to not be level but that is usually outside the realm of most skiers who frequent this forum. I usually wait until the hip joint is working correctly before I start to talk about shoulders and upper body unless there is something weird going on above the waist like breaking too much in an effort to get "forward" or if someone had told them to always face down the mountain or do some bad version of braquage thereby upsetting the position of the pelvis.
I coached young ski racers for 10 years and worked on getting their fundamentals correct working within a strong coaching setup and developed my "eye" there. We had more than a few go onto FIS, Europa cup and one onto the WC... With Inside Out we work with all levels of recreational skiers and do some development work with aspirant instructors and a few dozen qualified instructors who are keen to develop further.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@skimottaret, There is nut sack contact metrics in golf instruction. So skiing has a long way to go yet.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Looking at the images of really good skiers - they all have their head level and not tilted inwards.
I certainly find moving my head about affects my balance in any activity.
Maybe not the at the top of the priority list, but still something that might help, if you're aware of it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Fantastic ! I'm been looking for the reason why my skiing goes to pot, (light bulb moment) of course it's the neck angulation and nothing to do with the beer at all. (Only joking I never drink and drive/ride - spill too much of it.)
Can't wait for the next episode where they say they have found a high correlation between "expert piste skiers" and "skiers wearing ski instructor uniforms".
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
DB wrote:
....and nothing to do with the beer at all.
....That requires neck angulation, so you're good to go.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Old Fartbag wrote:
DB wrote:
....and nothing to do with the beer at all.
....That requires neck angulation, so you're good to go.
Flexion or pronation?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
AL9000 wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
DB wrote:
....and nothing to do with the beer at all.
....That requires neck angulation, so you're good to go.
Flexion or pronation?
Tipple, then Topple!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Old Fartbag wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
DB wrote:
....and nothing to do with the beer at all.
....That requires neck angulation, so you're good to go.
@rjs, They introduce ideas/concepts, which may resonate (or they may not).
If having lessons, they could bring up areas of discussion with the Instructor....or indeed trigger a discussion on here, as has happened above.
This is a season where many won't get skiing, so discussion and debate is all we do have.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've been watching this man for a while, Reilly Macglashan together with Paul Lorenz for a while and quite like their style of skiing. Recent video of him talking about the common mistakes that can be found by FIS racers. I appreciate these are world class athletes, and in this case it is the best GS athlete in the world - Marcel. Would be interested to hear your views on his analysis. (P.S i'm just a beginner admiring all those turns....)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@garricw, I am going to give my view as a "layman" that has no qualifications whatsoever.
Firstly, I think the title of the Video is misleading. He is not so much "busting myths", as showing there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The Video makes a good talking point and goes to my view that in skiing - there is no "right" way......but for ordinary mortals, there are certain things that you need to grasp, before deciding to break the "rules". Hirscher is so good, he can, as he knows exactly what he is doing.
1. Many of the Videos above talk about "Flex to transition" and the reasons for it - so this is perfectly normal in more expert skiing.
2. As a lesser mortal, one should get the tips to bite - but I suspect what Hirscher is doing here (and I could be wrong) is getting more speed by letting his weight come back over the skis at the end of the turn - which literally pings him in the air. I've seen this used in races where the racer wants to get a faster run time (though they try not to get airborne) - but it's risky.
3. It takes a great deal of skill to incline that amount, putting considerable weight on the inside ski. It may be something to mess about with, if a very competent skier - but not generally recommended outside of a drill (White Pass turn).
4. Arms getting behind is not a good habit for ordinary skiers to get into. GS racers can swing the arm that matches the turning ski, round with that ski to get more drive and momentum (I think)....but swinging the arms about in Short Turns will do more harm than good in most skiers.
5. Racers often touch the snow as another point of contact. If you can generate the type of angles to allow you to do it, I don't know what harm it would do - provided you don't catch in the snow or lose form.
IMV When you have got to a level that allows you to mess about with this - that is one thing. When starting out on your skiing journey, listen to your Instructor, as they will be giving advice based on your level.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 30-07-22 15:30; edited 2 times in total
@Old Fartbag, Great thread. Whilst a long-time (for ever-more?) intermediate level skier, I'd always struggled to understand why my instructors have always consistently taught up-unweighting, while so many videos focus on down-unweighting - but that '3 levels of carving video' does a good job of de-mystifying that. Doesn't it knacker your legs though if you do it all the time - I thought the other advantage of extending was to allow the lactic acid to flush?
Since we're all geeking out on this - I didn't quite get why the guy in the earlier series keeps talking about ankle angulation ? I thought if your boots fit right, there's limited opportunity to do that, but he keeps bringing it up and activating the subtalar. Yet it barely makes a paragraph in Ron LeMasters book. Is he playing fast and loose with his terms and actually meaning flexing the ankle ? I would have thought compared to knee angulation it would play a marginal role at best ? Or is it that type of marginal gain that racers seek out?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Pejoli wrote:
@Old Fartbag, Great thread. Whilst a long-time (for ever-more?) intermediate level skier, I'd always struggled to understand why my instructors have always consistently taught up-unweighting, while so many videos focus on down-unweighting - but that '3 levels of carving video' does a good job of de-mystifying that. Doesn't it knacker your legs though if you do it all the time - I thought the other advantage of extending was to allow the lactic acid to flush?
There is a recent Reilly video analysing the difference in the two fastest racers from last weekend's GS. One stays low all the time, the other crosses over the skis, neither are unweighting though.
Quote:
Since we're all geeking out on this - I didn't quite get why the guy in the earlier series keeps talking about ankle angulation ? I thought if your boots fit right, there's limited opportunity to do that, but he keeps bringing it up and activating the subtalar. Yet it barely makes a paragraph in Ron LeMasters book. Is he playing fast and loose with his terms and actually meaning flexing the ankle ? I would have thought compared to knee angulation it would play a marginal role at best ? Or is it that type of marginal gain that racers seek out?
Changing foot/ankle angulation will have an effect on alignment at the knee, it won't change the angulation of the lower leg directly.
@Pejoli, Re ankle angulation IMV. I think it's about thinking of skiing from the ground up.
There is a subtle difference in focusing on tilting at the feet/ankles inside the boot and letting the knee follow - and focusing on the knee and letting the ankle follow. Looking on from the outside, they will look much the same - but it gets you concentrating on skiing from the feet up.
Here is Deb Armstrong talking about what is (invisibly) happening in her ski boot (albeit in moguls). She calls it her "Super Power". Even though the ski boot restricts much of the movement, she says the "intention" must be there.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Old Fartbag, I sort of get what you're saying ... but he's talking about angulation and activating/moving the subtalar - which suggests creating a *physical* ankle supination/pronation. And when I think about tilting from the feet up as you say, in my mind it's visualising the ankle bones pushing against the side of the shell, not actually 'rolling' the foot (I think ... hard to imagine wearing slippers).
My understanding of angulation is the mechanical positioning of the joints and limbs to give the desired ski edge angle *and* have the
centre of mass and major support structures all stacked - lined up and 'strong'. In a flexible boot, the ankle roll would give another degree of freedom to help that, but surely in a rigid boot (with suitable footbed to prevent the foot arch collapsing), surely it's minimal ? Or again - is this just reflecting my level of skiiing ?
@rjs, can you elaborate on your point about changing the knee alignment - again just trying to understand that if the foot can't actually supinate/pronate in the boot, what effect that has ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Pejoli, I think you will need a Trainer, with a good knowledge of biomechanics, to answer your question with the level of detail you are looking for.
For me, thinking of skiing from the feet up and focusing on the "intent" of tilting the feet (with the knees following) is enough. The stiffness of the boot means there is very minimal actual movement inside it ie. Angulation, not ankle flex.
I think at your level, there are other things to worry about first.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
A part of me is thinking that discussing calculus is not going to help me do my 8 times table.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Old Fartbag, don't get me wrong - this is purely an academic exercise for me. I realized a while ago that while I'm fascinated by the mechanics and what's going on (I have an engineering degree), it has absolutely no bearing on how I learn. As I mentioned up the thread, I always have lessons (generally private so a decent level of focus on 'me'), and in my experience the step-ups in my skiing are from those once-a-holiday 'eureka' moments when you finally feel the right sensations that your instructor's getting you to focus on and internalise them, rather than any lengthy self-analysis on joint positioning/stance etc.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
a whole new level of geekery...
(Only joking I never drink and drive/ride - spill too much of it.)
