@mountainaddict,yes, even less of a bargain, not mentioned in the BBC report, but identified in HIE's "business case" for repairing the funicular is that they acknowledge that even with the funicular back in operation the Cairngorm operation will run at a loss, with a provision of between £9.76m and £14.57m over a five-year period to support the operating company until 2026. Quite what happens beyond 2026 is anyone's guess.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 13-10-20 22:14; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Probably best to use it as target practice for the Scottish Air Force
No, I knew he was (rightly) being sarcastic, my choice of words was poor, I've edited it now to say even less of a bargain.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Nelbert75 wrote:
The amount of (mostly) public money that has been poured into this concrete money pit is nothing short of a disgrace.
Think what glencoe or glenshee would have been able to do with even a fraction of the cash that cairngorm has had.
Also imagine what else Cairngorm could have achieved had the money been spent elsewhere on the mountain
After all it is free
After all it is free
I met Jim of Corries Quickpoor concrete, Aviemore whilst he was boarding his private yacht in Monaco.
His brother is a local Tory councillor and his uncle a trustee of HIE
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Is this in light of the CV pandemic and an attempt to tempt British skiers to Caingorm?
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@homers double, it won't tempt me back to Cairngorm, I much prefer to ski at the other Scottish resorts (I was skiing at Glenshee last season and have booked accommodation in March next year near Ft. William to ski at Nevis Range and Glencoe )
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
A bit more detail
Quote:
Balfour Beatty has been appointed to reinstate Cairngorm’s funicular railway.
The contractor has been awarded £20.5M by the Scottish Government’s Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE) to reinstate the railway as well as other works to turn the highland peak into a year-round tourist destination.
Works on the railway will cost approximately £16M.
The decision to reinstate the funicular was taken following a detailed options appraisal that also considered replacing it with alternative uplift infrastructure, or removing it entirely.
The railway had initially opened in 2001 however it has been out of service since 2018 due to structural problems. An engineering report from July 2018 noted that the structure's condition for it's age was "disappointing" with various defects identified. A second report commissioned by HIE confirmed that work was needed to strengthen the railway's piers, beams and foundations.
Initial work to strengthen the 2km structure, which has been out of action since 2018, is expected to start later this month. Once up and running, the funicular is expected to attract thousands of visitors a year, generating benefits for the wider economy in Badenoch and Strathspey, where the tourism and hospitality sectors have been hit hard by Covid-19.
A further £4.35M has been approved for potential additional capital requirements including building improvements, electrification of snow cannons, existing tow infrastructure, paths and car parking.
Scottish Government rural economy secretary Fergus Ewing said: “We want to unlock the full potential of Cairngorm to make it a destination people can enjoy all year-round, and this significant investment couldn’t come at a better time.
“The business case for reinstating the funicular, which HIE has published today, made clear that repair and reinstatement was the preferred option. Removal was estimated to cost approximately £17 million and would limit options around seasonal diversification on the mountain.
“The funicular will not only transport thousands of annual visitors up Cairngorm again next winter, it will also bring access to the mountain environment to a broad range of visitors, including children, older people and people with disabilities.”
Highlands & Islands Enterprise chief executive Charlotte Wright said: “Cairngorm is more than a mountain. It’s at the heart of the community and a key driver of the local economy, providing high quality jobs and supporting the wider tourism sector in Strathspey and Badenoch.
“With the funicular now set to be reinstated, and a range of other priority investments planned, we can continue to work with local stakeholders to ensure the surrounding business and communities can really begin to unlock Cairngorm’s potential and secure its future for decades to come.”
Balfour Beatty national framework manager Alastair Somerville said: “We are pleased to be working on the Cairngorm funicular infrastructure project and look forward to continuing our close collaboration with Highlands and Islands Enterprise.”
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Alastair Pink wrote:
@homers double, it won't tempt me back to Cairngorm, I much prefer to ski at the other Scottish resorts (I was skiing at Glenshee last season and have booked accommodation in March next year near Ft. William to ski at Nevis Range and Glencoe )
Looks like it may be the only option this season...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
it won't tempt me back to Cairngorm
It's such a good area though, especially in full snow cover and with easy access to excellent off-piste. Historically, a long season too, with ski touring often into June.
Such a shame that there seems to be no will at all to improve the basic lift infrastructure and the fact that Ciste-side lift access was removed was just criminal...
I feel sorry for the staff - some of whom have been there a long time, who always offer a cheery welcome and who we are on friendly terms with after all our visits over the years. It can't be an easy place to work....
Quote:
Looks like it may be the only option this season...
Why's that
homers double?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
mountainaddict wrote:
Quote:
it won't tempt me back to Cairngorm
It's such a good area though, especially in full snow cover and with easy access to excellent off-piste. Historically, a long season too, with ski touring often into June.
Such a shame that there seems to be no will at all to improve the basic lift infrastructure and the fact that Ciste-side lift access was removed was just criminal...
I feel sorry for the staff - some of whom have been there a long time, who always offer a cheery welcome and who we are on friendly terms with after all our visits over the years. It can't be an easy place to work....
Quote:
Looks like it may be the only option this season...
Why's that
homers double?
Cemented my opinion that they care more about coffee and cake tourists in the summer (funicular allowing) than skiiers.
I like aviemore for mountain biking, but really cba with Cairngorm attitude to skiing. A real shame, but it will be Shee and Coe for me, and has been for a few years.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Grew up near there, great memories as a teen racing about in a gang, been back a few times as an adult but once you've experienced Europe or North America things are never quite the same.
The old adage of 'if you can ski in scotland you can ski anywhere' rings true. Have found myself in Alps and Rockies in heavy snowfall, weather that sends 90% packing, just loving it thinking this is nothing compared to horizontal sleet in a gale with 10 metres visibility and flat light as you slide sideways 40 metres between turns over sheet ice not knowing if you're even going uphill or downhill. Character building!
If they get ample coverage I think the lifts they have can cope for intermediate level up, however for beginners looking to get to the big nursery areas on the summit, that proves impossible without the funicular. Also if I remember correctly the M1 poma doesn't get you quite high enough to get across to the Ciste side or even for the M2 run. Funic was working last time I went so wasn't an issue. Lady t-bar is a big miss and could have been backup for the funicular failing - they missed that one.
Seems too common that they dont have snow so can't run all the lifts from the bottom station resulting in frustration and little value for money.
Here's hoping for a big cold winter, climate change suggests otherwise.
I'm in the west now an hour from Glencoe, the place shuts so so often for wind alas. I'm sure they could use a few million to get something resembling a modern lift system.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
once you've experienced Europe or North America things are never quite the same
While I agree it can never be a Whistler, Zermatt, Aspen or 3 Vallees, even after visiting all of those places (and more) , there's still something to be savoured and enjoyed about UK skiing - whether it's the slopes of Scotland or the hills of Northern England. Any sliding on snow - anywhere - is just a thrill in my book.
Quote:
Also if I remember correctly the M1 poma doesn't get you quite high enough to get across to the Ciste side
The top of the M1 tow is about level with the Ptarmigan Restaurant - it's an ever so slight uphill traverse to get to the restaurant door. From there you are at the top of the Ciste slopes - so an easy enough connection.
Quote:
Seems too common that they dont have snow so can't run all the lifts from the bottom station resulting in frustration and little value for money
Top to funicular middle station is a respectable 400m vertical - so is definitely worth doing, especially via The White Lady, which is just excellent in full cover. Also, middle station to bottom on the Cas side is very flat - all beginner slopes. While it is always nice to be able to ski to the bottom, I don't think it's essential for a good day at Cairngorm.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The funicular fiasco feels like a future episode of ‘abandoned engineering’ in the making!
It failed in its objective to transport skiers and other visitors reliably up to the Ptarmigan. That objective was probably never achievable because of the extreme weather so a lack of scrutiny at that point may be where the original failing lies.
The cost of building, operating and ultimately removing the funicular is much higher than the chairlifts it replaced. The additional income has not made up the difference and the resultant losses have led to the removal of more lifts from the hill undermining its unique selling point as the UKs top Snowsports area.
An early change in design from steel viaduct to concrete viaduct was a fatal flaw. Concrete is not easily repairable (or removable) and the thickness of the viaduct pillars has impaired the snow holding on the iconic White Lady ski run.
Cairngorm funicular Is an example of where the ‘do nothing’ option would have given a much better outcome. Maintaining then eventually replacing the original chairlifts would have been tens of millions of pounds cheaper and would probably have kept Cairngorm a viable ski area.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Peter S wrote:
The funicular fiasco feels like a future episode of ‘abandoned engineering’ in the making!
Cairngorm funicular Is an example of where the ‘do nothing’ option would have given a much better outcome. Maintaining then eventually replacing the original chairlifts would have been tens of millions of pounds cheaper and would probably have kept Cairngorm a viable ski area.
Build the Funicular or 'do nothing' was pushed hard by HIE as the only two viable options on CairnGorm. This was used to browbeat local businesses and snow sports interests into supporting the Funicular. The 'do nothing' option was publicly pushed as exactly that at the time.
Years later when Audit Scotland did their original report into the Funicular fiasco we got confirmation that HIE tells lies. 'Do Nothing' was nothing of the sort, do nothing meant not replacing the existing chairlifts, but did include the new Ptarmigan, new Base Station and a new Sheiling - the Carpark Chairlift would have been extended into the new Base Station and the top of the White Lady Chairlift would have remained where it was but incorporated into the current Ptarmigan.
At this point it might be worth noting that when the Funicular project was approved and the contractor was Morrison Construction, the Chairman and CEO of Morrison Construction was one Fraser Morrison who was Chairman of HIE.
At this point it might be worth noting that when the Funicular project was approved and the contractor was Morrison Construction, the Chairman and CEO of Morrison Construction was one Fraser Morrison who was Chairman of HIE.
While I agree it can never be a Whistler, Zermatt, Aspen or 3 Vallees, even after visiting all of those places (and more) , there's still something to be savoured and enjoyed about UK skiing - whether it's the slopes of Scotland or the hills of Northern England. Any sliding on snow - anywhere - is just a thrill in my book. I dont have that level of joy just from putting on skis, I may have long ago but snow conditions and visibility need to be reasonably good first these days.
The top of the M1 tow is about level with the Ptarmigan Restaurant - it's an ever so slight uphill traverse to get to the restaurant door. From there you are at the top of the Ciste slopes - so an easy enough connection. Did they extend that at some point? Memory is a little sketchy but sure it never used to go that far up back in the day, great that it does now.
Top to funicular middle station is a respectable 400m vertical - so is definitely worth doing, especially via The White Lady, which is just excellent in full cover. Agreed, super run on a good pitch and good moguls. Haver skied it hundreds of times.
Also, middle station to bottom on the Cas side is very flat - all beginner slopes.
While it is always nice to be able to ski to the bottom, I don't think it's essential for a good day at Cairngorm. It is more essential to have cover there if you are beginners and can't get to the top nursery area. Even Fiacill and Coire Cas tbar runs at higher elevation are a little much for novices. The number of snow fences creating narrow pistes can be offputting in that lower car park t bar zone. For others it's not an issue, agreed.
Must try and get back up this winter (on a weekday).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The M1 Poma was extended in the 90s before the funicular project started.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I used to work for Morrison and have vague recollections of raised eyebrows when they won this "prestigious" contract... we operated under the banner "Quality built in" ......if only!
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Sounds as though there may be some legal action going on behind the scenes either with the contractor ‘Morrison’ (?) or perhaps the designer which I think was Dopplemayr.
‘At the recent Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee in the Scottish Parliament (see here) Audit Scotland again confirmed HIE was taking legal action to recover money from “the design and build aspects of the funicular”’.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
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^^^^ Wow! The saga that just keeps on giving
All we want is a functioning, user-friendly ski area. Is it really too much to ask??
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Alastair Pink wrote:
haggishunter wrote:
At this point it might be worth noting that when the Funicular project was approved and the contractor was Morrison Construction, the Chairman and CEO of Morrison Construction was one Fraser Morrison who was Chairman of HIE.
Reading that report, it appears the whole project is a complete mess from start to finish. The ground where they plan to install the snow making factory is a swamp! Who on Earth thought that would be a good location to situate it on
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Is anyone interested in lobbying to stop the work?
The funicular is a lossmaker.
They blame the drop-off in skier numbers.
But (when it was running) the funicular had minimal capacity.
It can only take 40 passengers 4 times per hour.
It's only for transporting a busload of passengers up to the restaurant for coffee and cake. The conditions of the EU grant of £2.5M were onerous. The non-skiing passengers arent allowed out at the top.
They also have a big problem with double-stopping at the halfway points because the railway cars can't simultaneously stop at the same mid point.
When it snows, they have to close the funicular to dig out the top tunnel and clear the track.
The car park is a big problem too. It's breaking up, and costs a lot to keep clear.
The access road is the first to be snowdrifted in, and it costs a lot to keep it clear and maintained.
They decided to build the track up the side of the White Lady. It's definitely constrained it and spoiled one of the best runs in Scotland.
It's supposed to be able to run in high winds. But I remember it going off because of windy weather.
If I was in charge, I'd look at building a 3-wire gondola system from Loch Morlich or Glenmore. For instance: along the lines of the Penkenbahn in Mayrhofen.
It would run in winds of up to 60mph, and would make the queues vanish.
It wouldn't cost more in the long run and at 2000 pax/hour it could support a profitable number of passengers.
I would allow climbers access, and would allow walkers to walk back down if they wanted to.
It would save all the money they spend on the high level car park and the access road.
Doppelmayer, I believe, originally provided the train, the wire and ropes, but not the track or the buildings.
The political problem is spec-snipping and unrealistic budget setting.
As well as that, I dont think the right people were brought in to advise or manage.
However
A list MSP, rejoicing in the name of Sir Edward Mountain is worth lobbying.
https://m.facebook.com/EdMountainMSP/?tsid=0.5838091771699226&source=result
Let's stop this chucking good money after bad, and make them build something worthwhile and successful.
when it was running) the funicular had minimal capacity.It can only take 40 passengers 4 times per hour
Hmm....
Opened in 2001, the Cairngorm Funicular runs for 1,970 metres and rises through 462 metres, with a maximum gradient of 23° (1 in 2.5 or 40%). Each carriage can accommodate 120 people standing.
At busy times, I've seen it running continuously... It's about 6 minutes up, non-stop - so even allowing for midway stops, that will be around 6 times an hour. So 720 people per hour, vs the incorrect 160 per hour quoted above....
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
mountainaddict wrote:
Quote:
when it was running) the funicular had minimal capacity.It can only take 40 passengers 4 times per hour
Hmm....
Opened in 2001, the Cairngorm Funicular runs for 1,970 metres and rises through 462 metres, with a maximum gradient of 23° (1 in 2.5 or 40%). Each carriage can accommodate 120 people standing.
At busy times, I've seen it running continuously... It's about 6 minutes up, non-stop - so even allowing for midway stops, that will be around 6 times an hour. So 720 people per hour, vs the incorrect 160 per hour quoted above....
So less than a T bar! ...A fully loaded T bar moves 1200 per hour!
Hi Idris
Yes, and a Poma lift will move 1400 pax/hr at 3.5m/s.
They need a few more at Cairngorm.
But the main uplift needs to be a gondola.
I still say run a decent 3S Gondola from Glenmore. 3S (two support cables and one puller) is rock solid -even in high winds, and would be a thrilling and marvellous passenger experience.
It would solve a lot of the current problems, and save a lot of money if you include the road costs and high-level car park.
Car exhaust pollution on the access road must also be a problem.
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I was up at Cairngorm the week before last and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Tbars are in a really good state of repair. The pomas looked fine too. The base and top stations of the tbars had all been grit blasted and painted. The pylons and sheeves were in good condition and there was quite a lot of new galvanised steel evident. There is some good engineering maintenance going on at Cairngorm.
The loading areas were all sound and the most of the key fences were in fair to good condition. Many of the access tracks had been newly surfaced and were free of rocks. The actual skiing infrastructure looked good and ready to go.
There was a big mess just above the day lodge however where a team from SSE were up to their knees in peat fixing a large power cable.
Whilst i think it is a big mistake to throw more money at the funicular which has already bankrupted the hill twice, it was at least reassuring to see that the actual ski lifts, some of which are now approaching 60 years old, are in good condition and probably have more life left in them than the funicular!
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SkiPresto wrote:
Hi Idris
Yes, and a Poma lift will move 1400 pax/hr at 3.5m/s.
They need a few more at Cairngorm.
But the main uplift needs to be a gondola.
I still say run a decent 3S Gondola from Glenmore. 3S (two support cables and one puller) is rock solid -even in high winds, and would be a thrilling and marvellous passenger experience.
It would solve a lot of the current problems, and save a lot of money if you include the road costs and high-level car park.
Car exhaust pollution on the access road must also be a problem.
I dont see this happening, not least because someone would have to sanction destroying hundreds of trees and hence wildlife habitat to build a new car park at the imaginary base station.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Unclear whether any money to be spent on any other lifts...
Quite what happens beyond 2026 is anyone's guess.
