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Lawsuit Corona Ischgl

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54256463
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Hope this is thrown out. It smells of ambulance chasing. The world was still in the early stages of learning about covid in early March, let alone February. People made decisions on the information they had at the time. Is there any evidence that bad faith decisions were made or is this just Monday morning quarter-backing?
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Not really there is significant evidence that the authorities is Ischgl covered up the spread of the virus in the resort to avoid closing it down and damaging their season. If this is proved in a court of law, then frankly long jail terms would be appropriate for those involved in any proved cover up, they literally have blood on their hands. If it was in the UK and I was head of the CPS corporate manslaughter charges would be appropriate IMHO.
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jabuzzard wrote:
they literally have blood on their hands


What, they not only (allegedly) let the virus spread in the town but also cut people open and made them bleed?!?! This is a new accusation I've not heard before. Or do I just know what the word "literally" means... rolling eyes
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@Mjit, Very Happy Very Happy

Welcome to the pedants club.
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There is currently a judicial investigation in progress in Innsbruck. Until that concludes I doubt any other court case will get very far. If there is actually any "significant evidence" it will get published as part of the investigation.
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Pedants should learn the language first

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blood-on-ones-hands

If proven they knowingly allowed to virus to spread, then jail time for those involved is the appropriate response.
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jabuzzard wrote:
Pedants should learn the language first

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blood-on-ones-hands


Ah but, the insertion of the word literally means you are not using the following words as a phrase, but rather you literally mean them literally.
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More relevant to the OP, I agree, if there was a cover up it is a criminal matter not one for group litigation.
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https://www.tt.com/artikel/30753683/lh-platter-entschuldigt-sich-fuer-causa-ischgl-es-tut-mir-leid-sehr-leid
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Be interesting to see how it unfolds.
It will be easy to make scapegoats from a terrible situation. Many around the world kept their businesses open when central governments should have closed them down. Cheltenham Races, for example.
Successful prosecutions will open the floodgates and the whole world will become bankrupt and have to be saved by 'It's not good to sue everyone Panda' - formerly 'Sexual Harassment Panda'

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.......
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@Mjit, I think the word "literally" is now one of those phrases that means the opposite of what it used to mean, much like the phrase "world leading" now means "crap"
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johnE wrote:
@Mjit, I think the word "literally" is now one of those phrases that means the opposite of what it used to mean, much like the phrase "world leading" now means "crap"


Laughing Laughing
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cameronphillips2000 wrote:
Be interesting to see how it unfolds.
It will be easy to make scapegoats from a terrible situation. Many around the world kept their businesses open when central governments should have closed them down. Cheltenham Races, for example.
Successful prosecutions will open the floodgates and the whole world will become bankrupt and have to be saved by 'It's not good to sue everyone Panda' - formerly 'Sexual Harassment Panda'

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.......


There's a cracking clip on ITV news of my mate being interviewed at Cheltenham after a few beers saying how he's not worried at all by the virus.

Funnily enough he's removed it from any social media Laughing
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midgetbiker wrote:
jabuzzard wrote:
Pedants should learn the language first

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blood-on-ones-hands


Ah but, the insertion of the word literally means you are not using the following words as a phrase, but rather you literally mean them literally.


Literally an illustration of top tier pedantry. Or maybe mansplaining.


Re Ishgl - can't see the case not being killed one way or another at state or federal level. Too much danger of totally killing the ski/tourist industry if the only real answer is to shut up shop until COVID has passed.
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Mjit wrote:
jabuzzard wrote:
they literally have blood on their hands


What, they not only (allegedly) let the virus spread in the town but also cut people open and made them bleed?!?! This is a new accusation I've not heard before. Or do I just know what the word "literally" means... rolling eyes


midgetbiker wrote:
jabuzzard wrote:
Pedants should learn the language first

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blood-on-ones-hands


Ah but, the insertion of the word literally means you are not using the following words as a phrase, but rather you literally mean them literally.


All of which makes me glad it's Max Hill QC in charge of the CPS.
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So: Iceland informs Austria of possible cases in Ischgl on 5 March (or perhaps even a couple of days earlier) - at a time when knowledge and testing abilities were limited. Within 10 days Austria close down almost their entire winter tourism industry.

Seems like they made a big call pretty quickly. The lawsuit looks like ambulance chasing to me.
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I think only publically known facts are that authorities in Ischgl:
1. Knew they had infections from around March 5th.
2. Had a publically confirmed case in the village on the 7th.
3. Ordered the closure of all bars on the 10th.
3. Closed/were forced to close by higher powers the resort on the 13th, along with the rest of Paznaun valley.

The questions, and until evidence is presented to the judicial investigation speculation, is that:
- The authorities knew, or had strong reason to believe they had an outbreak in the village earlier than the 5th.
- The authorities knew, or had strong reason to believe the outbreak in the village was significant and spreading, rather than 'the odd case' before the 10th.
- The authorities knew, or had any good reason to believe shutting bars and/or locking down the resort was a necessary step on or before the 10th or 13th - and one they had the legal authority to take.

Personally I doubt there was anything significantly wrong in their actions. Yes, they COULD have acted sooner and the outcome WOULD have been better, but once it was clear the virus was running wild they locked down and isolated everyone. I mean, it's not like they started testing people, identifying the ones who WERE infected...and then sent them to recover in old people's homes now is it. I mean, who would do THAT...


In the end the truth will out (as this is an Austrian enquiry, not a UK review which calls hundreads of people, lasts years and only results in a report full of recommendations (that never get acted upon) and a call that "nobody was really to blame".
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@ecureuil, Couldn't agree more. The sad, greedy, people entering this law suit, no doubt encouraged by the blood sucking leeches, oh do I mean Lawyers?. Should be ashamed of themselves. It's like the proverbial 'kicking the man when he's down'. Sadly that seems to be more prevalent these days too.
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To be honest, if a family member of mine had died or I'd been extremely ill to the extent of major hospitalisation with a COVID infection that had clearly been obtained in Ischgl or on one of the cramped "Get The F Out Plague Carriers!" buses they banished tourists on, I'd probably be joining the lawsuit.

I don't think that would make me greedy just a desire to hold people accountable for their actions or non-actions that severely impacted others' lives. As above though my expectations of success would be very low.

I don't know how much my perception that Ischgl is pretty trashy in an expensive gilt edged way so no great loss to the ski world if it were to be bankrupted affects that.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think that's fair – some situations were really stupid, totally predictable and could have been avoided if certain people had turned their brains on. Investigating is sensible.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
To be honest, if a family member of mine had died or I'd been extremely ill to the extent of major hospitalisation with a COVID infection that had clearly been obtained in Ischgl or on one of the cramped "Get The F Out Plague Carriers!" buses they banished tourists on, I'd probably be joining the lawsuit.

I don't think that would make me greedy just a desire to hold people accountable for their actions or non-actions that severely impacted others' lives.


But by their very nature lawsuits are about money and NOT justice.

My knowledge of the Austrian legal system is minimal but I'd assume the purpose of the current official enquiry is to identify the facts and the result of that may include criminal prosecution if they are appropreate. That's the route to justice.
This lawsuit on the other had is all about "Where there's blame there's a claim", with the question not "How long should the persons responsible be punished for?" but "How much should we get paid?".

The pessimistic part of me wonders how long it will be till the UK courts are backed up with cases against case homes and the NHS because "Poor great gran may have been 98, bedridden, and not had a visit from any of us, her loving family for 6 years but she had many good years left ahead of her when she died! (Let's say about £60,000 worth shall we?)".
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@Mjit, Hear hear. They should never have allowed the no win no fee system to flourish. As you say its all about money not care not justice not welfare not future safety
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Old Man Of Lech wrote:
@Mjit, Hear hear. They should never have allowed the no win no fee system to flourish. As you say its all about money not care not justice not welfare not future safety

How could they NOT ALLOW law firms to pay their expense up front?

"no win no fee" is only "free" to the victims who couldn't pay.
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The official report is due to be published on 15th October. I am sure there will be those who will not accept the conclusions but at least it should layout details of who knew what when.
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Mjit wrote:


But by their very nature lawsuits are about money and NOT justice.

My knowledge of the Austrian legal system is minimal but I'd assume the purpose of the current official enquiry is to identify the facts and the result of that may include criminal prosecution if they are appropreate. That's the route to justice.
This lawsuit on the other had is all about "Where there's blame there's a claim", with the question not "How long should the persons responsible be punished for?" but "How much should we get paid?".

The pessimistic part of me wonders how long it will be till the UK courts are backed up with cases against case homes and the NHS because "Poor great gran may have been 98, bedridden, and not had a visit from any of us, her loving family for 6 years but she had many good years left ahead of her when she died! (Let's say about £60,000 worth shall we?)".


Not sure your initial premise is entirely true. Struck me that e.g. the OJ Simpson civil suit was very much about attaching culpability where the criminal justice system had failed. And its often the only route where "authorities" don't want to take an interest.

That said - yes i clearly can see where your rabbit hole goes and that's why I think ANY court will be reluctant to allow any claims for COVID related negligence unless there are direct negligence claims like not bothering to check on a patient for 24 hours or giving them an OD.

I also have a bit of a problem with those who say no win no fee should never be allowed. It's very much like saying the big guy should always be allowed to do what he wants with people too poor to mount their own legal case. And i speak as someone who once worked with a colleague whose husband had the leading personal inhury practice in the area. He seemed to me to have done terrific work for miners with mesothelioma and VBF etc but of course was not above slip and fall suits for clients who'd been pissed up in bars.
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Don’t know how it works in Austria, but in Australia “no win, no fee” does not mean you pay nothing if you lose. While your lawyer might not invoice his fee, court costs, disbursements, and legal fees for the other side mean you can still finish up considerably out of pocket.

There has to be a balance between justice for the “little man”, versus frivolous/opportunistic law suits. Not sure how that can be achieved in practice.
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-09/ibiza-of-the-alps-under-scrutiny-as-emails-tell-new-virus-tale

I think it was March 4th when Iceland informed Austria.

I was due to have a stand at Keipzig Book Fair on the 12th. It was cancelled, as was Dublin Comicon, after they had a couple of cases in Dublin.

Crufts and Cheltenham took place the week after that.....
Maybe Boris will get sued....
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I believe the court case is being funded by an Austrian "consumer rights" organisation. They have organised the collection of names of individuals who claim to have been affected by the situation.
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The Austrian investigation into the handling of the coronavirus outbreak in Ischgl has now been completed. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/failures-at-austrian-ski-resort-helped-speed-up-spread-of-covid-19-in-europe
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About as damning as it gets....
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It's damning in the sense that the evacuation was poorly managed and the shutdown could have happened a day or two earlier. But claims that the virus was rife throughout Ischgl in late February and covered up by the authorities seem to be unfounded.
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What's the point if these investigations? The virus would have spread in Europe anyway, this just accelerated it by a week or two. It's not like the politicians would have spend those two weeks taking steps to get ready for it.
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Oleski wrote:
What's the point if these investigations? The virus would have spread in Europe anyway, this just accelerated it by a week or two. It's not like the politicians would have spend those two weeks taking steps to get ready for it.


Agree, absolutely bang on the money. For all the "actions" that have been implemented on this planet to "control" this virus, it's travelled everywhere.

X number of people involved in this location makes no difference to the whole situation, it's just that it was visible, recorded and has a focus on this forum because of the ski interest.

It really isn't worth any effort to pursue it from outside interest point of view as it changes nothing. For their own community and it's readiness to cope with local conditions in response to any significant emergency, then something like this will always shine a light on preparedness.
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queenie pretty please wrote:
It's damning in the sense that the evacuation was poorly managed and the shutdown could have happened a day or two earlier. But claims that the virus was rife throughout Ischgl in late February and covered up by the authorities seem to be unfounded.


'Health authorities acted untruthfully'' That's pretty terrible. Trying to deny what Iceland was telling them.

I do agree, to some extent that it was always going to spread but there were areas and regions that dealt with this honestly and responsibly. There are those in public office who did not.

I was staggered to see huge crowds on top of mountains during the Tour de France. Paris is now facing an ICU crisis.....
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There is a good deal of detail on the report on one of the other Ischgl threads https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=4654062#4654062 . There is an English summary of the actual report that is more enlightening than media reports. There is some criticism of some decisions but it could hardly be described as a "damning indictment" more lessons to be learned for the future especially with regard to better communication. I doubt it will help the court case very much. It does not provide any backing at all for the thesis that the millionaire bar owners of Ischgl deliberately infected the whole of Europe with a deadly virus in pursuit of profit.
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@cameronphillips2000, I suspect you have not actually read even the summary report as those words (or any such implication) are not contained within it. Some mistakes yes but no "untruths", lies or conspiracies.

You must have been watching a different Tour de France than I, the number of spectators on the cols at the Tour this year were small in number as access was restricted by the organisers. There were some people who walked or cycled up and there was a scattering of the usual idiots who run alongside the riders but no huge crowds. Even in towns the spectator numbers were small, a few villages did see more normal crowds. Spectators were banned from the start and finish areas, the final day in Paris had no public at all. The TdF had nothing to do with the current situation in France.
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munich_irish wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, I suspect you have not actually read even the summary report as those words (or any such implication) are not contained within it. Some mistakes yes but no "untruths", lies or conspiracies.

You must have been watching a different Tour de France than I, the number of spectators on the cols at the Tour this year were small in number as access was restricted by the organisers. There were some people who walked or cycled up and there was a scattering of the usual idiots who run alongside the riders but no huge crowds. Even in towns the spectator numbers were small, a few villages did see more normal crowds. Spectators were banned from the start and finish areas, the final day in Paris had no public at all. The TdF had nothing to do with the current situation in France.


https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/8728/how-the-tour-de-france-2020-went-ahead-despite-covid-19

https://www.velonews.com/events/tour-de-france/riders-dismayed-at-number-of-fans-on-climbs/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-8705647/Tour-France-riders-fear-catch-Covid-19-fans-lining-climbs-without-masks-on.html

Sorry, but I can only assume this is troll post. I watched every stage
There were huge crowds over the top of the Pyrenees, many without masks - there was an outrage on Twitter, many calling for the race to be swapped (There are thousands of images of this - simply google)
By the time they got to the latter mountain stages, in the Alps, they had banned people on the passes. How you can state this had no effect on Covid, along with other events held in France is beyond belief. It is well known the huge impact the crowds as the Champions League game in Bergamo had on the town.

I haven't read the article. If I 've got it wrong - I stan corrected and please write to the Guardian. My quote is directly from their article above. BUt judging by your comments on the TDF - Which on a scale of 1-100 of being wrong are off the scale, I'm trusting the Guardian over your analysis on the Ischgl investigtion.
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@cameronphillips2000, the Guardian article about the Ischgl investigation is a rather poor summary of the full report which munich_irish posted on the other Ischgl thread.
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queenie pretty please wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, the Guardian article about the Ischgl investigation is a rather poor summary of the full report which munich_irish posted on the other Ischgl thread.


I will have a read. If the Guardian article is misleading, I stand corrected.
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