 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, Awesome video clip, thanks for posting!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Actually, it's beyond nice and approaches life-affirming. I struggle to think of a better way to spend a day than skiing deep, un-tracked snow with some good friends. |
I'll second that 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| There are risks when skiing off-piste that you don't get when skiing on piste, |
and vice versa, I've skied outside the piste a few times to avoid lots of folk on runs they shouldn't have been on!!
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Other people have said it before but:
the sensation of floating in powder
the challenge of adjusting to varying snow conditions
the peace
the sense of self-reliance from finding your way, managing the hazards, making decisions
the adventture in finding new places
the feeling of seizing a fleeting moment when the conditions are perfect
the lovely surprise in finding a little pocket of good stuff when most is vin ordinaire
the satisfaction of reaping the rewards of all that time spent getting the skills to enjoy it
At its heart 30 magic turns in great conditions can be so much more memorable than a day of hammering pistes. Some offpiste runs are tatooed on my memory in a way that no piste skiiing is.
As for tips on how to get your confidence back well I could tell you all sorts of rational things about how all skiing has risks and the ones off-piste are moderate but I doubt that is very helpful. Surely the answer is take baby steps. Also go with a pro but explain your nervousness up front.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
At its heart 30 magic turns in great conditions can be so much more memorable than a day of hammering pistes. Some offpiste runs are tatooed on my memory in a way that no piste skiiing is.
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Nicely put!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 6-03-12 17:52; edited 1 time in total
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Walter-Spitty,
nowt wrong with Tiger Sharks, they're much maligned. Prob better to be diving with them rather than swimming on the surface.
More seriously, if you got hurt, that's unfortunate, and it's not unreasonable to avoid activities that have caused pain. The rational argument is to look at the numbers doing it (offpiste), the # of injuries, factor in your skill level, and decide.
however, rational isn't alway easy to do, so rob@rar's advice makes sense.
More people die angling, than skiing (and yes, I know, lies + statistics!)
h.
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| jedster wrote: |
| At its heart 30 magic turns in great conditions can be so much more memorable than a day of hammering pistes. Some offpiste runs are tatooed on my memory in a way that no piste skiiing is. |
on top of that, i have one or two individual turns which are burned on my memory. mostly involve going over a rollover onto a steeper bit of deep snow and getting a massive faceshot 
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All about the snow and floaty light feeling for me. And you can't drop a cliff onto a piste. Certainly not with a hot tub landing anyway!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Because it is the only thing that frightens and challenges me.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Less of a fustercluck in many resorts. Powder, corn, a bit of self-reliance. I really hate busy pistes and probably wouldn't ski at all if that's all there was. |
This, I've never heard anybody else say it, but it's the truth.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Floating in pow is just the best feeling in the world.
Fun.
Testing my self - skills and balls. And being free to take sole responsibility for my actions, no rules, but big punishments.
Being humbled and feeling truly insignificant to the untamed mountains. |
This too!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Since all the pistes seem to be bashed flat these days for the wimps that can't ski, offpiste is the only thing vaguely challenging (dons hard hat and hides in corner)
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A skiing colleague sent me this recent report, I'm sure he'll not object to me copying it here:
NO PISTE FOR THE WICKED
Every year Tony organises an off-piste week with Mountain Guide Dave Etherington, who led Tony, Peter, Barry and others on their epic traverse of the Alps which became the subject of Peter’s book “Following the Sun” (Copies still available and well-worth reading).
We go to Argentierre which is generally thought to provide the best skiing in the Chamonix valley, and there is no more dramatic place than Chamonix. This year the snowfall has been heavier than for many years and we confidently arrived ready for a week of deep-powder skiing. We were in for a shock!
On our first day high winds closed the top of the Grands Montets and we could only ski the lower slopes. Did I say ‘only’? It is a massive area of great bowls including the Canadian, Italian and Lavachet. We did them all- many times- virtually without going onto a piste. The area had been well skied but the snow was in good condition but it was a gigantic mogul field and I reckoned up that we did 23000 feet of descent in a day.
Conditions were the same the next day so Dave took us to Le Tour. At first sight this looks a very ordinary, small resort. Not with a Guide it isn’t. We immediately ducked under the ropes at the edge of the piste and we had the place to ourselves. This is one of the beauties of skiing with a Guide. He takes you to places you would never find for yourselves. You are on your own and you feel that you own the Alps. Full of the joys of winter we shot off only to meet – SASTRUGI! If you’ve never skied this then you’re very lucky. It’s horrible stuff. The wind whips the snow up into frozen peaks like meringue and you have fight like the devil to get the skis to turn. Thank heavens for modern, wide skis. The old winkle-pickers we used to have would have been impossible. We did a descent of about 800 metres of the stuff and if I never see it again it will be too soon.
Next day we were able to get to the top of the Grands Montets. Which immediately gives you the first problem. You have to descend the 220 steps of the metal staircase down onto the Argentierre glacier in ski boots and carrying your skis. This was just one sign of how the glaciers are retreating in the Alps. The views were spectacular with a gorgeous snowfield spread out in front of us just begging for us to lay down lines of perfect linked turns. If only! It was breakable crust! Sometimes the snow would bear your weight as you turned but more often than not you broke through and staggered round the turn. Life didn’t get any easier because soon we were in amongst the crevasses. It really concentrates the mind when you are skiing a few feet from a gaping hole of blue ice. Dave doesn’t act as a ski instructor but he does give you a great deal of advice. Although when I knocked Tony into a, thankfully snow-filled, crevasse the word ‘advice’ is a euphemism for what he actually said.
Life had already been sufficiently exciting but we were about to experience one of the most dramatic runs in the Alps. The Pas de Chevre or Goat’s path. This takes you from the top of the Grands Montets in Argentierre all the way to Chamonix past some of the most famous peaks in the history of mountaineering. You feel very small indeed as you crawl beneath the Dru, a towering vertical rock face 1000 metres high. The skiing was very challenging for me as you never knew what was coming next so you never relaxed. When we looked back all we could see was a mass of snow, ice rocks and trees. You couldn’t see how we had got through it. Then we had to get down onto the end of the Vallee Blanche which meant some very difficult side-slipping down narrow, steep gulleys. And when we had done that and skied the Mer du Glace we had to put our skis on our backs and climb up about 300 feet onto the path you have to ski to get back to Chamonix. We had done about 10 kilometres and a descent of 2200 metres. We were exhausted but exhilarated.
After that you would think we would have a rest but I don’t remember our trips to Coumayeur and St.Gervais as being restful. Dave certainly gave us our monies worth as he continued to find runs that inspired us to keep on going.
I think the moral of the week is that the words ‘off-piste’ only tell you what you are not skiing. They don’t tell you what is coming next. You find that out for yourself very quickly.
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You know it makes sense.
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tangowaggon, You haven't skied les Grands Montets then have you?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 6-03-12 21:36; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wow, what a mouth watering description. Wish I was there.
Still, the danger factor is very scary, for me, not a turn-on
We decided in recent thread the risk of avalanche death off-piste is very hard to define but probably between 1 in 1000 and 0.018% per week of off-piste, so the odds are quite low. Mind you, as others reminded us, there are many other ways to die so be realistic what off-piste you take on, think I'm a few weeks away from what's described above. That thread is still on page 2 of the Piste if you are interested
For me, the attraction is the technical achievement, the floating feel of powder, but even more, the amazing variety, scenery, being at one with nature. Its like the difference going for a run along monotonous suburban streets, versus going on a variety run along the river, through trees, miles from streets, over hils etc.
I won't do off piste this March, I think there are some disasters waiting to happen, but will definitely do it next jan, unless avi risk is 4 +
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Apart from all the memorable runs, it is darn sight more comfortable than bouncing over all the on piste lumps and bumps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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At my advanced age I'll never learn to do it now but I can understand why other folks do it. I guess it's "true" skiing i.e. on natural snow as it's fallen whereas on-piste skiing is manufactured (nothing wrong with that - great for us old gits who are blue/ red cruisers).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| colinstone wrote: |
| Apart from all the memorable runs, it is darn sight more comfortable than bouncing over all the on piste lumps and bumps. |
Especially if you're on Dynafit bindings 
I started skiing off piste about 10 years ago, and while I often feel challenged, on the edge, and on the limit, I never feel in the same sort of danger as I do when on a crowded piste surrounded by skiers and boarders who are skiing too fast for their abilities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I struggle to think of a better way to spend a day than skiing deep, un-tracked snow with some good friends. |
Don't worry we wont show this thread to mrs rob@rar
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I struggle to think of a better way to spend a day than skiing deep, un-tracked snow with some good friends. |
Don't worry we wont show this thread to mrs rob@rar |
I can think of a better way to spend five minutes, but not a whole day 
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Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all of your input and sage advice. I'm going to be re-reading and absorbing this thread for a while; I can feel it working its magic already.
rob@rar and clarky999, thanks for the great videos. You've come up trumps again.
It sounds like I might have been lucky with my piste skiing experiences compared to some. I've had quite a few trips with no lift queues, empty pistes - sometimes ungroomed, no bladers, and in 22 weeks have only ever been sent flying once by another piste user. I did fracture my leg within half an hour of being on skis for the first time though, so I reckon I deserved some good luck after that.
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| jedster wrote: |
the sensation of floating in powder
the challenge of adjusting to varying snow conditions
the peace
the sense of self-reliance from finding your way, managing the hazards, making decisions
the adventture in finding new places
the feeling of seizing a fleeting moment when the conditions are perfect
the lovely surprise in finding a little pocket of good stuff when most is vin ordinaire
the satisfaction of reaping the rewards of all that time spent getting the skills to enjoy it
At its heart 30 magic turns in great conditions can be so much more memorable than a day of hammering pistes. Some offpiste runs are tatooed on my memory in a way that no piste skiiing is. |
This sums it up almost perfectly.
Once you learn to control yourself in deep powder, its heaven. There is no comparison in snowsports.
The sensation of floating - like gliding along on soft fluffy clouds. Like bouncing on a sea of pillows. No friction, little impact, just bouncing and floating.
The peace - when your away from a piste in an untouched area, the snow and terrain is so inviting, waiting for you to enjoy it.
The thrill of the adventure - exporing the mountain. which way to go? any way you want exactly as you choose. if it looks good - go that way, you dont know exactly what you'll find after those next trees or over than bump but you'll jump bounce glide and turn your way through it. And if you fall, the powder will catch you. Laugh, get up, and get moving again
The satisfaction - time spent learning and falling over endlessly so when you can finally 'do it' you feel relaxed, excited, full of adrenaline, tired and happy.
Flatlining the first run of the day - first tracks in thigh deep snow - the slope was bearly steep enough to make turns on (we found steeper)
Jan 21, 2012 just another epic powder day:)
(North America next season)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Once you learn to control yourself in deep powder, its heaven. There is no comparison.
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Fixed it
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I agree with what everyone has said above. Until recently I skied four weeks a year with guides, off-piste - for ten years. I love off-piste skiing, I would now not bother skiing if it was just piste skiing. If you have the time, inclination, and drive to develop the skills, it is a truly wonderful experience. It is sometimes the most pleasurable experience, it can be for me, better than anything. Pistes are now somewhere I have to ski, although I can still have some superb times on them.
It is not all about the powder for me, if you do lots of off-piste then it really cannot be, most of the time it will not be bluebird powder conditions. Powder is very easy to ski - once you have mastered the technique. For me it is about skiing all the of the challenging terrain, in differrent snow conditions, and enjoying it all - within good reason! If you can really enjoy yourself skiing off-piste in different conditions then it really is wonderful. Being just with your guide, or group in the Mountains away from the crowds is serene. I feel privileged to do it.
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You know it makes sense.
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patricksh, oh don't be silly about the risk of death off piste. It is just not 1 person per 1000 weeks skiing off piste.
An easy way to find out is to look at SCGB Freshtracks holidays.
Each season the SCGB (ski club v1.0) runs a series of off piste holidays- weeks and weekends each with a guide / instructor as you suggest for yourself.
You have a defined sample and no deaths.
So for example in the last 3 years (to the 2010/11 season) there were 2353 weeks skiing off piste with the SCGB off piste holidays (and 250-300 weekends as well many off piste) with NO DEATHS FROM ANYTHING. There have not been as far as I'm aware any deaths in SCGB off piste holidays for many years (there was death off piste in Switzerland some years ago with a rep- a fall).
Likewise the Eagle ski club runs off piste weeks - about 20 or more per year some very adventurous indeed- with NO DEATHS (I think).
Or you could look at La Grave- arguably a very dangerous place to ski - with deaths every year. There is no piste skiing at all that anyone goes there for, the number of lift tickets per year could be found (I will shortly) and the number of deaths per year form all causes (usually falls on very very steep ground) likewise to give an idea of the risk in a place where people do very risky stuff.
How many avalanche deaths in France in a year- well in 2007/2008 there were 13 deaths of skiers in total (see piste hors where deaths of many others climbing / snowshoeing are also set out). Were there 13,000 weeks off piste skiing- or less- no there were probably hundreds of thousands.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| patricksh wrote: |
Wow, what a mouth watering description. Wish I was there.
Still, the danger factor is very scary, for me, not a turn-on
We decided in recent thread the risk of avalanche death off-piste is very hard to define but probably between 1 in 1000 and 0.018% per week of off-piste
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Hmm. You decided that did you I'm keeping away from that thread, it was giving my hypertension. If you want some real stats on the risk you could do worse than look at the SLF site.
E.g. "The individual risk of an avalanche accident for off-piste snow sport was calculated as 7 x 10-5 and for backcountry snow sport as 3 x 10-5 per year, which is both slightly smaller than the risk of driving by car" (source)
The numbers in there ("7 x 10-5") didn't paste very well, it is 7 exp(-5), or 0.00007 or 7 in 10,000 or 0.007% if I've counted the decimal places correctly. And that's accidents, not deaths. There's plenty more on the SLF site.
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I won't do off piste this March, I think there are some disasters waiting to happen, but will definitely do it next jan, unless avi risk is 4 + |
What if the risk was 2 one day in March with a deep snow pack, you'd not ski then but you would ski in January on a day when the risk was 3 or 4, when the snow pack might be thinner than it is now? Why are there "disasters waiting to happen" in March that won't happen in January? There's no rule that says early season is any safer than later season. In fact the opposite would be more likely, thinner snow packs are generally less stable and more likely to suffer from weak layers forming during a cold spell. The last serious cycle a couple of weeks ago came after a very long cold spell, it would have been far worse if the snow pack had not been so deep. My point is that you should judge the conditions at the time and then assess the risk, don't start fixing ideas in your mind now, there's no point.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is completely impossible to get any sort of accurate answer form the stats. One run on one day may have an 80-90% chance of avalanching, another run on a different day may have 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Because groomers are a bit meh around my part of the world, and because I snowboard 
and because cranking up the tunes and hammering down a steep hill in deep pow makes me feel like a hero.
and because I love surfing, and riding powder is the closest I can get to that in winter, because it's too cold to surf.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JayDub, +1
It makes it a whole lot more interesting/challanging/fun to have to get to the start of a pitch yourself, pick a line yourself, then have to decide on the technique to use as you ski into different conditions on the was down.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I love tree skiing too. You don't normally get tree wells in Europe and I've never hit a tree, even gently. I have, however, had my wooly hat removed by twigs a few times.
Making the first tracks on a slope far from anything human and knowing people seldom go there is just wonderful. Just you and nature.
When pistes start to become too easy or predictable this is also the next step to find challenges - steep slopes, varying snow conditions to be managed. Yes there are dangers too but there are plenty of less steep off piste slopes with minimal danger and obviously a good High Mountain Guide, while taking you places you wouldn't have found on your own, will hugely decrease the danger - they have skied most of their lives off piste and survived so far!
Also I hate icy slopes - I always ski worn pistes in the piled up snow because it allows you more control (as long as you have good technique). And proper powder skiing is one of the best experiences of life.
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The Swiss study finding 7 x 10-5 is interesting. My reading of the paper is that this is based on "light" readings everytime you cross a barrier into the backcountry. So assuming you do this 4 times a day for 6 days, your weekly risk is 148 x 10-5 = approx 0.15%, actually not far off our estimate, and, certainly not negligible.
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patricksh, just out of interest, do you calculated the numerical risk of death or serious injury in other aspects of your life, such as driving, playing sports, etc?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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0.15% is way too high an estimate IMO. Most resorts would have offpiste skiers dying several times a week if it were that high.
I actually work in risk management (mostly major accident risks, but hey - gives you some perspective) and if the risk was that high I'm almost certain there would be much more stringent measures and laws around skiing out of bounds.
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| Quote: |
I can think of a better way to spend five minutes, but not a whole day
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gosh, rob@rar, a whole five minutes!! What if you're in a bit of a rush?
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