 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This whole affair has been a bit of a disaster. There’s been a fair bit of coverage over the past month or so as the new rules loomed.
The biggest issue will be for those with dual nationality but who don’t hold a valid UK passport. They’ll need to get either a UK passport or the ridiculously expensive certificate of entitlement. 
Even for those of us who a are dual nationals holding both passports, it means we need to provide separate API details for outbound and return legs, if travelling on different passports. EJ have updated their systems to allow different API details for different legs under the same booking, but I gather not all airlines have, which would require a phone call and grief with customer services.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Cardo, I think the bigger short-term issue, as mentioned in the previous post to yours, is for those who have never applied for a UK passport, despite having (dual) UK nationality, and are currently abroad. Some of them may be unable to get back into the UK this week.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| @Cardo, I think the bigger short-term issue, as mentioned in the previous post to yours, is for those who have never applied for a UK passport, despite having (dual) UK nationality, and are currently abroad. Some of them may be unable to get back into the UK this week. |
I think I covered this as the biggest issue in my middle paragraph? I think the issue is a lack of information from the government. Whilst this has been coming for a while, and I’ve been aware of it for at least a month, many people are not aware. There’s likely an element of personal responsibility, but I do think the government should have done better. Not just in relation to informing people of these changes, but providing reasonable solutions, such as an ETA alternative at a similar cost for UK nationals who don’t hold a UK passport. The difference between a £16 ETA and a £589 certificate of entitlement is punitive (bearing in mind the certificate is only valid for the validity of their other passport). Why not offer a £16 certificate of entitlement to UK nationals who don’t want to hold multiple passports? I’ve seen it framed as a Brexit issue, however this isn’t just a UK-EU issue, this is anyone who holds UK and dual citizenship.
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| brianatab wrote: |
If you want the protections of being a UK citizen when traveling around the world, then the least you can do is to pay for, and carry a valid passport. 
This was inevitable when the EU and UK brought in the new post Brexit rules. The introduction of biometrics (even without Brexit) would have required it.
Everybody possibly affected ought to have kept up to date with the requirements.
It has been announced that an expired UK passport will be acceptable in the short term. |
There are a lot of people who are technically UK citizens however have never held UK passports. These new requirements essentially force them to obtain and maintain a UK passport if they want to visit the UK, even if their other passport would be a perfectly valid document for entry into the country.
This is not a Brexit thing. It applies worldwide, despite many framing it as a Brexit consequence.
| brianatab wrote: |
Do you leave on one passport, and declare the other on arrival at your destination?
Surely the obvious answer is to enter/exit using the same passport, otherwise neither system will know where you are? |
Maybe an obvious answer to you, but not as straightforward as you may think. The best example is a UK-US citizen. They travel to the US on their US passport, as they would require a visa to travel on their UK passport, and would travel back to the UK on their UK passport, as per the new ETA rules. They’re not going to get a US visa for their UK passport just to travel into the US, when they have US citizenship.
Both my nationalities are aware of my dual citizenship, so they know my comings and goings into the two countries, no matter which passport I use.
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@Cardo, it shouldn't be necessary to enter different API information for the outward and return journey. As far as I understand, you're free to book both legs on a foreign passport but you will need to flash your British passport at British passport control. The airline may also ask to see your British passport to check that you won't be turned away at the border as you won't have an ETA
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@Cardo, and your US dual national example is a non issue. You book both legs on your US passport and simply show your British passport when arriving back in the UK. Other countries also have this rule
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| @Cardo, it shouldn't be necessary to enter different API information for the outward and return journey. As far as I understand, you're free to book both legs on a foreign passport but you will need to flash your British passport at British passport control. The airline may also ask to see your British passport to check that you won't be turned away at the border as you won't have an ETA |
Alas, it’s simply not that easy. The airlines require you to provide the details for the passport you’ll be using to travel and enter the destination country. If I were to use my Spanish passport details for a UK-EU return trip, on my return, they could flag that my Spanish passport does not have a valid ETA and deny me boarding on the flight, despite having a UK passport. As I understand it, airlines are penalised if they allow people on the flight who don’t have authority to travel to the country, and therefore it’s not in their interests to bend the rules.
This topic has been substantially covered on another forum I frequent that has various UK-US and UK-Canadian citizens, who have stated it’s a big inconvenience for them. In my case, for the time being, I could still travel on my UK passport when travelling to the EU, and simply proffer my Spanish passport on arrival in the EU country, however that will likely cease to be an option once ETIAS kicks in, as I would have to have a valid ETIAS in my UK passport.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| @Cardo, and your US dual national example is a non issue. You book both legs on your US passport and simply show your British passport when arriving back in the UK. Other countries also have this rule |
Again, not that simple. If they provide their US passport details without a valid ETA, then they could be denied boarding on the flight. The airlines make a point of ensuring you provide the correct details for the travel document you’ll be using to fly to the destination country. Why would have EJ changed their API system to allow different details on different legs if it were a non issue, as you state?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Cardo, As I said, it would have become an issue anyway, and will become even more of an issue as more and more Countries adopt biometrics and keep stricter records of who enters/leaves.
What did you expect the UK Govt to do to inform everybody who may be affected?
How would they do that?
Do they keep a list of all UK dual nationality citizens?
Do you keep them informed of your current address every time you move?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've had dual nationality for 10 years and when travelling to EU I always exit and enter UK with British passport and in Europe I use my EU passport to enter then exit. You cannot mix and match IE exit UK then enter with EU it will not show you leaving the UK. When going worldwide I would use my British for ease.
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| brianatab wrote: |
@Cardo, As I said, it would have become an issue anyway, and will become even more of an issue as more and more Countries adopt biometrics and keep stricter records of who enters/leaves.
What did you expect the UK Govt to do to inform everybody who may be affected?
How would they do that?
Do they keep a list of all UK dual nationality citizens?
Do you keep them informed of your current address every time you move? |
The press is covering this issue now, maybe the government could have informed the press earlier to allow more people to prepare? Whilst it’s not been hidden, it’s not been particularly well publicised, either.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Cardo,
| Quote: |
not that simple. If they provide their US passport details without a valid ETA, then they could be denied boarding on the flight.
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It's not going to be complicated, or expensive, to get an ETA (valid for three years) for both passports, is it?
The publicity thing is the same argument unsuccessfully mounted by the Waspi women.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| KSH wrote: |
| It's not going to be complicated, or expensive, to get an ETA (valid for three years) for both passports, is it? |
The key issue is UK nationals cannot legally obtain an ETA, even for a foreign passport.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Had a chat with my sister, who has lived in Sydney (Australia) for the last 25 years, and holds both a UK and Australian passport.
In the past she has departed and entered Oz on her Australian passport, and entered/departed UK on her UK passport. However...
In the future if she does that, she'll probably have ETA problems with the airline. And if she uses the UK passport to exit Oz it might be an issue because the Australian authorities will have no record of her ever entering the country on that UK passport.
What I don't know is how linked up the immigration officers on the desks at Sydney & Heathrow are to the ETA systems. If you pitch up at Heathrow and flash a UK passport at the immigration desk officer will s/he care there is no ETA associated with it, and no record of you leaving the country, will s/he care?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Cardo,
| Quote: |
The key issue is UK nationals cannot legally obtain an ETA, even for a foreign passport.
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Sorry, I think I'm being dim... why not? Subject always to the ETA rules actually coming into force, of course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| KSH wrote: |
@Cardo,
| Quote: |
The key issue is UK nationals cannot legally obtain an ETA, even for a foreign passport.
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Sorry, I think I'm being dim... why not? Subject always to the ETA rules actually coming into force, of course. |
UK nationals are not eligible to obtain an ETA. If a UK national were to try to obtain an ETA, it would/should be refused.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Cardo, I think I must have acronym confusion (or more generalised confusion) this is what I was thinking of: EU Entry/Exit System - GOV.UK https://share.google/WXoB27RVyjqWoA7bI
Sorry, I think I'll get back in my box. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Judwin wrote: |
Had a chat with my sister, who has lived in Sydney (Australia) for the last 25 years, and holds both a UK and Australian passport.
In the past she has departed and entered Oz on her Australian passport, and entered/departed UK on her UK passport. However...
In the future if she does that, she'll probably have ETA problems with the airline. And if she uses the UK passport to exit Oz it might be an issue because the Australian authorities will have no record of her ever entering the country on that UK passport.
What I don't know is how linked up the immigration officers on the desks at Sydney & Heathrow are to the ETA systems. If you pitch up at Heathrow and flash a UK passport at the immigration desk officer will s/he care there is no ETA associated with it, and no record of you leaving the country, will s/he care? |
I was recently told to do this by the border guard in Copenhagen (in the EU queue and accidentally gave them my UK passport); leave and enter the UK on the British passport, enter and leave the EU on the EU passport. I've done this since with no problems, flight to and from the UK booked on the UK passport, if that helps.
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But further it says
“ so we have provided additional temporary guidance to carriers on possible alternative documentation, including expired passports issued in 1989 or later and alongside a valid non-visa national third country passport where biographic details match. It is an operational decision whether carriers accept alternative proof, and if so, what alternative proof they will accept.”
What do you think the risk averse box ticking airlines will do?
Its a stupid move. Any proof that you are a UK citizen should do on a permanent basis, including an expired UK passport.
But also pushing immigration checks onto airlines is also poor.
Alternatively land in the Republic and cross the land border.
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| Cardo wrote: |
| brianatab wrote: |
@Cardo, As I said, it would have become an issue anyway, and will become even more of an issue as more and more Countries adopt biometrics and keep stricter records of who enters/leaves.
What did you expect the UK Govt to do to inform everybody who may be affected?
How would they do that?
Do they keep a list of all UK dual nationality citizens?
Do you keep them informed of your current address every time you move? |
The press is covering this issue now, maybe the government could have informed the press earlier to allow more people to prepare? Whilst it’s not been hidden, it’s not been particularly well publicised, either. |
What use would it be for the UK Govt to inform the UK press when most of the people it might affect are not resident in the UK?
Why would the German, French, Australian etc press bother to cover this issue?
How about those who live in Mongola, or other such remote places?
The UK Govt hold no contact details for any of those eligible for a UK passport who, (for many various reasons) live outside the UK and choose not to pay for a passport, so how would they be able to inform you personally?
Some people want the best of both Worlds without the inconvenience of paying even the minor price of a passport, but expect everyone else to run around catering to their needs.
If you don't carry a British passport, then why should the FO help you out when in difficulty abroad?
If you enter a third Country on a German, French of Australian passport and encounter visa problems, then you should contact those countries for assistance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The new rules are just bringing the UK into line with the processes that many countries follow. My wife has dual nationality, and has a UK passport plus her home country passport. Her home country will only allow her to enter using their passport so she always keeps both passports valid. The API data has never been a problem, she always uses her UK passport details for the API details even when she uses a different passport to enter her home country. As long as you have both valid passports with you when you travel then immigration/border control and airport checkin are able to use a bit of common sense and see you are a valid traveller.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stuarth, my daughter is dual Canada/UK national. Currently she travels on her Canadian passport when visiting and only uses her UK passport to re-enter the UK, so we use her Canadian details for API.
We’ll see if that causes any issues when we head back later this week!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@narbs,
Should be ok at the checkin desk as long as you have both (and can explain/point to the rules as per uk gov), but couldn't do online checkin as it wanted my eta details.
I also only use my uk passport for travel to uk, for uk immigration, but until last year it was mostly really to avoid the big line at Heathrow.
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You know it makes sense.
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@brianatab, there are groups of people who are technically British citizens through no fault or actionoif their own, who have no interest in having the "protections of being a UK citizen when traveling around the world." An example group is children born overseas to British migrant parents, who are then British citizens by descent. I believe there are for e.g. a significant number of people in this category in Australia. Such individuals have in many cases never had a British passport as they've never needed one in but are not now going to be permitted to travel to the UK on an ETA with their Australian passport.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| @brianatab, there are groups of people who are technically British citizens through no fault or actionoif their own, who have no interest in having the "protections of being a UK citizen when traveling around the world." An example group is children born overseas to British migrant parents, who are then British citizens by descent. I believe there are for e.g. a significant number of people in this category in Australia. Such individuals have in many cases never had a British passport as they've never needed one in but are not now going to be permitted to travel to the UK on an ETA with their Australian passport. |
Spot on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| @brianatab, there are groups of people who are technically British citizens through no fault or actionoif their own, who have no interest in having the "protections of being a UK citizen when traveling around the world." An example group is children born overseas to British migrant parents, who are then British citizens by descent. I believe there are for e.g. a significant number of people in this category in Australia. Such individuals have in many cases never had a British passport as they've never needed one in but are not now going to be permitted to travel to the UK on an ETA with their Australian passport. |
Can they renounce their British nationality to avoid that complication?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| @brianatab, there are groups of people who are technically British citizens through no fault or actionoif their own, who have no interest in having the "protections of being a UK citizen when traveling around the world." An example group is children born overseas to British migrant parents, who are then British citizens by descent. I believe there are for e.g. a significant number of people in this category in Australia. Such individuals have in many cases never had a British passport as they've never needed one in but are not now going to be permitted to travel to the UK on an ETA with their Australian passport. |
Can they renounce their British nationality to avoid that complication? |
From what I can see, it's only possible to renounce British citizenship once someone is 18 and it costs £482 (which is cheap compared to renouncing US citizenship). At a quick glance, this appears to be about 3 times as much as applying for a passport (but I might have misunderstood). A current problem is that there is a backlog in the passport application system, as many people who didn't previously need a British passport are now applying.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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if they have no intentions of having the protection of being a UK citizen then they should not need to renounce anything. Simply never make use of what they might be entitled too. Although US is a special case there for tax, but that's another story.
If one has a citizenship, then they should be able to make use of any protection, consulate, embassy etc. to which they are entitled with that citizenship, regardless of which passport was used to cross a border.
Sadly on the Brexshit thing, UK citizens that don't qualify for Irish (or other EU) passport now no longer have the entitlement to make use of any EU embassy, which they used to be able to do. So if you believe you should only be entitled to the protections granted by the passport used at entry, then use an Irish passport if you have one.
I don't care what people think my entitlements should be. I only care about what entitlements I am entitled to by law. And what law takes away from me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@sugarmoma666, @Cardo, You reinforce my point that it would have been a total waste of resources for the UK Govt to try to ensure they were all aware of the new rules.
Many of them might never visit the UK, so there wont be a problem for them. However, if they do, then it would be prudent to check the rules at the time.
I accept that those planning to come in the next few months may face some inconvenience, but alternative means of identification have been announced.
As similar rules are being/have been applied by other Countries (including those they currently reside in in many cases) then they ought to check when planning travel.
A temporary exemption (say 6 months) for those who have never held a UK passport could be arranged, but this will require additional resources at ports of entry, and inevitable delays. Proof of an outstanding application could suffice?
If anything, this raises complex issues, especially for those who qualify with multiple Nationalities*.
One of the consequences of allowing qualification by the Nationalities of Grandparents (who may also have multiple Nationalities) in the Modern World.
Maybe it ought to be limited to parents, and/or place of birth?
Proof of claim will always be required. The fact that this may require 100+ year old birth records just shows the absurdity of the current system.
One solution would be to restrict newborns to a single Nationality based on place of birth, but with an option of choosing another (based on their parent's, or place of upbringing) up to the age of 21?
* A Prime example being Emma Raducanu. Canadian by birth, UK citizen based on her time here, but with Romanian and Chinese parents + who knows what else based on Grandparents?
(I believe that she qualifies to play under 10 different Nationalities if she chose to )
An absolute potential nightmare for her through no fault of her own, and not restricted to the UK.
Or a "Welsh" Rugby player, based on a grandfather who emigrated before his 5th birthday, when neither parent ever visited the UK, or ever held a UK passport?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 23-02-26 20:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
A current problem is that there is a backlog in the passport application system, as many people who didn't previously need a British passport are now applying.
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tell me about it. Son is anxiously awaiting his new one which hasn't yet arrived in order to come away with us on 6th March.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is it ok to ignore this if you already have dual nationality and both UK and other passport?
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| RickBoden wrote: |
| Is it ok to ignore this if you already have dual nationality and both UK and other passport? |
Once temporary exemptions expire, you will need to ensure you enter the UK using a valid UK passport.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Cardo wrote: |
| RickBoden wrote: |
| Is it ok to ignore this if you already have dual nationality and both UK and other passport? |
Once temporary exemptions expire, you will need to ensure you enter the UK using a valid UK passport. |
Ty. Both our boys have valid UK and Swedish passports.
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My kids have both been caught up by this, which btw was extensively covered by the press in Nz. The announcement was made with very little notice relative to the time frames involved in getting the right paperwork.
Initially the requirement was to have to apply for a uk passport to visit the uk, which both needed to do due to an impending death of a relative. The initial problem, apart from cost and processing time, was that they were required to submit their other (nz) original passports with the uk application. Thats just not possible because they are both either working or travelling overseas.
It really was a huge poo-poo show and financial puss take but thankfully some sense is prevailing.
Pretty sure none of my family give a flying f””k about the protections and benefits of uk citizenship, they got stuck with it because one of their parents is a uk citizen.
They did however not get to say cheerio to their grandmother. So that was quite poo-poo
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FAQ
(think photocopy works now - but I think this still causes issues if you have changed names and they don't exactly match, etc)
