 Poster: A snowHead
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Don't know whether it's a short-term fashion or not but, in general, people seem to be prepared to spend a lot more on leisure time and entertainment activities in the last few years. It's not just prices being hiked, there is demand as well. Look at the prices for tickets for sporting events, shows, festivals etc. and they still sell out.
If I'm not on a skiing holiday I'm on a golf holiday and the price increases of golf since covid are higher than skiing I would say.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Over €400 for a week skiing in Europe. Meanwhile epic local pass was around €650 for unlimited skiing across multiple resorts. And N America is supposed to be the expensive place to ski 
Personally the Euro lift pass prices have priced me out. I can't justify paying €400+ for a random week where it seems odds are increasingly larger conditions won't be good.
Especially when for €100 per day I can get a private snowmobile with driver and unlimited laps in central Asia. Lots of powder, no crowds, way better value.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Busta Knee wrote: |
Don't know whether it's a short-term fashion or not but, in general, people seem to be prepared to spend a lot more on leisure time and entertainment activities in the last few years. It's not just prices being hiked, there is demand as well. Look at the prices for tickets for sporting events, shows, festivals etc. and they still sell out.
If I'm not on a skiing holiday I'm on a golf holiday and the price increases of golf since covid are higher than skiing I would say. |
My opinion as well:
I don’t know if the Covid pandemic, the war, and the current economic situation are pushing many people toward a “live life to the fullest while you can, because if a new Covid wave, war, or crisis comes, nobody knows what will happen” mindset.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Personally the Euro lift pass prices have priced me out. I can't justify paying €400+ for a random week where it seems odds are increasingly larger conditions won't be good. |
For €625 this season you can ski the entire Zillertal from mid November to mid May. Pretty good value. You just needed to have been here for the 2nd half of November to buy your pass in person.
I have friends that have done so that aren't locally based.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@swskier, The same goes for the other combined ski pass in Tirol. This replaces the 'local discount,' and I’m curious whether it will also apply next season. In some articles the mentioned that the found a way to overpass the EU Rules.
I was tempting also to buy the Tirol Regio pass (ca 880 für 1 Adult + 2 Kids) but i had alreay the PDS and didnt hit the button.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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We were at Cortina at Christmas. The conditions were really poor, the skyline to 5 Torri was shut when we arrived and the rest of local area was also mostly shut, roughly 30km of piste open from a possible 120km. We had to re-calibrate our expectations of a skiing holiday at Christmas to a Christmas holiday with a bit of skiing.
We knew there was some snow forecasted later in the week when we went to the ticket office to buy our passes. Ideally we wanted a 4 day pass even though we had 6 full possible days. The snag with that was the four days had to be consecutive & no one wants to go skiing and not ski for the first two days. So we opted for the “ski 5 from any 6 days” option. This cost us £700 for the pair of us, which equalled £70pp per day, for 30km of piste, or over £2 per km of available piste per day. This was not a Super Dolimiti ticket, it was local area, as I mentioned the skyline was shut and we weren’t going to bus it to the main circuit (we have skied that often enough to make the bus ride a chore).
The skyline to 5 Torri did open up later in the week, but… the lift to the piste that took you to the terminal was closed, as was said piste to the terminal. The local ski buses didn’t take you to the terminal. Also the piste back from the terminal was shut. Add in that only 3 runs were open in 5 Torri then it really wasn’t an option we would consider. Hidden valley was yet to open for the season too.
£70/day each for 30km of, frankly mostly sketchy and scraped piste. Tbf, the guy in the kiosk selling us the ticket looked embarrassed.
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@dode, Jeez that's grim. I've been twice over New Year in Austria and have been lucky with conditions both times. I thought of doing that for NY 27 but on reflection pistes that busy aren't going to be wise in my circumstances, not to mention the eye watering cost of the holiday.
Thinking is a week from 9th January and another from 30th January, gets both holidays in during my favourite skiing period and should be heading home just as the half term hordes arrive.
I like the idea of being able to choose not to ski without the feeling of having wasted a days pass so thanks to those whom suggested the sites with the flexible discounts, there doesn't seem to be one for Austria unless anyone knows otherwise?
Reading @dodes post I think I'll go for reasonable snow certainty and am currently thinking of the Arlberg and specifically Lech/Oberlech for the first time.
Might do that second trip though and stick to somewhere I know for the first week back on skis although looking at the sheer number of blue runs at Oberlech it might be ideal combined with good snow? Its dearer at €450 for a 6day pass but as I alluded to in my OP its as much about what I'm getting for my money and thus why Gurgl pisses me off a bit with the extent of increase for pretty much no improvements to facilities.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Over €400 for a week skiing in Europe. Meanwhile epic local pass was around €650 for unlimited skiing across multiple resorts. And N America is supposed to be the expensive place to ski
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If you compare like with like, it is crazy expensive compared to Europe.
Your Epic pass is no longer available. If you want to ski 6 days at Breckenridge (as an example) starting next week, for a senior, it is $1152. 6 day passes in any of the larger Austrian resorts are between €350 and €430, with passes covering whole regions being at the vtop end of that.
And of course, with your epic pass, it also includes a few Austrian resorts now - the Ski circus, the Zillertal being two large areas
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Personally the Euro lift pass prices have priced me out. I can't justify paying €400+ for a random week where it seems odds are increasingly larger conditions won't be good.
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If you are a skier looking for significant off-piste, bthen you may struggle in January. If you are skiing mainly on piste, most resorts now have so much snow making that conditions will usually be decent.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@alex_heney, but everyone knows what the deal is with epic. You buy your pass early and there's so many regions you are hardly locked into anything. Again I fail to believe this is incomprehensible to the average euro skier when there's whole threads on here about booking flights the day they are released to get the cheapest price.
Let's be honest if someone released a euro equivalent of epic local pass covering a few big resorts at €650 it would be considered beyond great value, even if you had to buy it early.
Great €400+ euros and I should expect no off piste and stuck on pistes with artificial snow. You are really selling Europe (Fwiw I don't think Europe conditions are that bad, but random hot spells are becoming a lot more common and do trash the off-piste).
I'll say again if you want best value you are wasting your time in Europe or n America. 6 days lift pass in Europe Vs 4 days private snowmobile uplift in central Asia where it stays cold and they get plenty of snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@alex_heney, but everyone knows what the deal is with epic. You buy your pass early and there's so many regions you are hardly locked into anything. Again I fail to believe this is incomprehensible to the average euro skier when there's whole threads on here about booking flights the day they are released to get the cheapest price.
Let's be honest if someone released a euro equivalent of epic local pass covering a few big resorts at €650 it would be considered beyond great value, even if you had to buy it early.
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It would - IF you are somebody who has more than 1 week a year to go skiing. And while many on here fall into that category, I don't think all that many skiers who live away from any ski areas do.
THere are "early bird" discounts on many of the large area season passes, but I don't think any are as low as that.
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Great €400+ euros and I should expect no off piste and stuck on pistes with artificial snow. You are really selling Europe (Fwiw I don't think Europe conditions are that bad, but random hot spells are becoming a lot more common and do trash the off-piste).
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I didn't say you should expect that, just that you couldn't be sure of anything more (and even that really is usually only true early or late season - though the season is also generally shorter in Europe than in N America).
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I'll say again if you want best value you are wasting your time in Europe or n America. 6 days lift pass in Europe Vs 4 days private snowmobile uplift in central Asia where it stays cold and they get plenty of snow. |
But you then have to factor in much higher travel costs (and time). And of course, you have to be able to take advantage of those conditions. A lot of us only ski on piste.
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I didn't say you should expect that, just that you couldn't be sure of anything more
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Which is part of the problem. It's quite an expensive gamble. On a good week I'd happily pay €400 for a lift pass. But it seems like odds of good conditions are getting increasingly worse.
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But you then have to factor in much higher travel costs
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Return flights are about £400. But I'm fairly confident most would make that back in much cheaper accomodation and food/drink - you can get a room for 2 people in a comfortable guesthouse for £22 including breakfast. The bigger issue is time, the travel adds up. But maybe quality over quantity just come for 4 days smashing some snowmobile skiing rather than potentially 6 days of more average skiing in Europe.
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You know it makes sense.
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@boarder2020, the question is why hasn’t it take over the Japan market, if as you say “quality over quantity”?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ski lots wrote: |
| @terrygasson, so be we can see how the model works for the resorts. It sucks people in and they eventually spend more money, at least in an individual resort. |
That’s the point- more bangs for the bucks for the punter, and optimising take from the available ski-dollar for the resort. Win for punter, win for resort. It’s the once a year skier that ends up completely shafted- as mentioned above two weeks a season in the same resort seems the break even. The solution is clearly ski more!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
It sucks people in and they eventually spend more money, at least in an individual resort.
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How would this benefit the lift operating company?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Over the past 10 years or so, day tickets for big Alpine ski areas have gone from an affordable €35-40 a day to a much more unaffordable €70-80 a day. We've also gone to six-day tickets being 6x the price of a day ticket - when these used to be much cheaper than buying six separate day tickets in years gone by. It must all surely be detrimental to encouraging young people to go skiing. Prices for one and two week skiers are prohibitive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Over the past 10 years or so, day tickets for big Alpine ski areas have gone from an affordable €35-40 a day to a much more unaffordable €70-80 a day. We've also gone to six-day tickets being 6x the price of a day ticket - when these used to be much cheaper than buying six separate day tickets in years gone by. It must all surely be detrimental to encouraging young people to go skiing. Prices for one and two week skiers are prohibitive. |
They are still cheaper than 6xday ticket prices, at least in the parts of Austria I ski. But they aren't as much cheaper as you might like - close to 5x the day rate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@alex_heney, but everyone knows what the deal is with epic. You buy your pass early and there's so many regions you are hardly locked into anything. Again I fail to believe this is incomprehensible to the average euro skier when there's whole threads on here about booking flights the day they are released to get the cheapest price.
Let's be honest if someone released a euro equivalent of epic local pass covering a few big resorts at €650 it would be considered beyond great value, even if you had to buy it early.
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I was just looking at my piste maps from January and realised there were options to buy season passes with discounts if you buy before 4th December.
For the Ski Welt (270 km of piste across 8 villages) that was €675, so not much different to your €650. For just Kitzbuhel area (233Km) it was €880, or €792 for seniors. For the Kitz superski card (2,843 Km across 23 ski areas) it was €999.
The just Kitzbuhel one seems a little expensive compared to the others.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| @boarder2020, the question is why hasn’t it take over the Japan market, if as you say “quality over quantity”? |
I have no idea how Japan lift pricing works. Nowhere that I know is offering dynamic pricing based on conditions. But why would they when they can just charge full price throughout the main winter season regardless of how bad things are?
My point is that people may start choosing quality over quantity. I'd much rather do 4 days snowmobile skiing in central Asia than 6 days resort skiing in Europe as the odds are much better of good riding. Similarly I'd probably trade 4 days snowmobile skiing for 1-2 days Heli skiing somewhere like Alaska/Bella coola.
If you go for quality you can justify the extra travel time (i.e. lost ski days) and potentially (but not necessarily) cost. If you are in the mindset that a central Asia trip means more travel and therefore losing a day or two on snow and that quantity aspect is non-negotiable well you will be limited to Europe.
Fwiw I don't think the vast majority currently choose quality over quantity, in fact I don't think it's a consideration you simply do a week and hopefully for the best. Increasing lift pass prices and the trend for worse conditions in Europe may make some consider going further afield which is when it becomes a decision.
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| Quote: |
It would - IF you are somebody who has more than 1 week a year to go skiing. And while many on here fall into that category, I don't think all that many skiers who live away from any ski areas do.
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Its hardly a novel concept that the more frequent users get the best deal. When I occasionally go swimming I'm probably paying 5x for my one off swim than those with yearly passes using it 3x per week are essentially paying per swim.
I'm never going to be upset at a pricing model that makes it cheaper for skiers that want to do a lot of days and more expensive for those only doing a week.
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For the Ski Welt (270 km of piste across 8 villages) that was €675, so not much different to your €650
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Not much different?! I think we can agree to disagree on that one. Give me Whistler, Breck, Crested Butte, and Kirkwood alone and I'd much prefer Epic Local, without all the other resorts. Granted, a lot is personal preference if you want huge km of piste with multiple connected villages you can't beat Europe.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| @boarder2020, the question is why hasn’t it take over the Japan market, if as you say “quality over quantity”? |
I have no idea how Japan lift pricing works.
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Sorry my question was a bit short on specific. My fault. I’m thinking in terms of trip cost and the powder potential.
People don’t go to Japan to ski the short vertical groomers for cheap. They go in hope of skiing the frequent storms. Many hire guides, or ski tour instead of doing the same in Europe. The flights to Japan are more expensive, guides and lift pass aren’t any cheaper. So the total cost is definitely higher to ski Japan than skiing in Europe. They didn’t go because it’s cheap. They go because the chance of dry powder is higher than anywhere else they know of.
If Central Asia cat skiing is less expensive than lift served terrains in Japan, why aren’t guides flock to Central Asia? How does the snow compare to Japan? How’s the terrain?
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Nowhere that I know is offering dynamic pricing based on conditions. But why would they when they can just charge full price throughout the main winter season regardless of how bad things are?
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Actually, that’s not true. Quite many resorts in North America offer a version of such. You can turn in your pass for a refund within the first hour if you don’t like the condition! That’s about as good as any “dynamic pricing”.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Doccam,
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@terrygasson, so be we can see how the model works for the resorts. It sucks people in and they eventually spend more money, at least in an individual resort.
That’s the point- more bangs for the bucks for the punter, and optimising take from the available ski-dollar for the resort. Win for punter, win for resort. It’s the once a year skier that ends up completely shafted- as mentioned above two weeks a season in the same resort seems the break even. The solution is clearly ski more!
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"The solution is clearly ski more!" (i haven't a clue how to make your text bold  )
exactly, it is my 60th birthday at the end of the month, and has always planned to have multiple ski trips this season if i could, and am always happy to go to the 3V's, so the season pass made financial sense for me this season.
with 3 weeks confirmed already, 1 already carried out, and possibly a 4th to VT at the end of the season
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What I find annoying about lift pass prices is the unrealistic size of the areas when it comes to the average 1 week skiing holiday. For example I’ve just been to Ski Amadé and the Dolomites, you are virtually forced into buying the full area pass but the chances of using all of it are very small, especially in non linked areas if you don’t have a car. So you are basically paying for something that you won’t use. Some places offer local area passes, like Alta Badia for example. When I was there last week I bought the local area pass one day but the saving is so small it’s hardly worth the difference.
But I can also see that even at £3-400 for 6 days use of all the facilities compared to some things in life it’s good value for money. You’ve got to look at the whole package, not just each individual uplift. The piste prep, the avalanche protection, the snow making, loss of income in poor weather, rescue facilities, integrated free bus service, snow clearing for access, parking and so on and so on. It all adds up.
One thing I’ve thought recently is can you imagine if we in the UK tried to do what all these big continental ski areas do?! It would be a complete shambles and probably cost 3 times as much for a lift pass!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Actually, that’s not true. Quite many resorts in North America offer a version of such. You can turn in your pass for a refund within the first hour if you don’t like the condition! That’s about as good as any “dynamic pricing”.
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If a service is so bad they give you your money back that's called a refund not "dynamic pricing"  Don't get me wrong it's definitely a good thing - but for the person that's travelled there for their week holiday probably still not great.
I wonder how much people would value their best and worst day at a single resort. I've had days at kicking horse and whistler where I've done one run and left and would say it's worth next to nothing. I've also had some amazing days that were definitely worth what a day pass would have cost and then some. Of course a bit different as had a season pass.
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If Central Asia cat skiing is less expensive than lift served terrains in Japan, why aren’t guides flock to Central Asia?
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I'm not sure a day cat skiing in central Asia is cheaper than lift skiing in Japan? A seat in a guided cat group here is around €120, possibly also includes lunch. Private snowmobile with driver €100 but that's without a guide so you'd need to have a clue about avalanche safety.
Central Asia doesn't get as much snow as Japan. Currently not really an issue as there's not a huge number of people here so finding fresh tracks a week after a storm fairly easy. Plenty of good terrain (arguably better than Japan - although I'm judging lift served Japan Vs touring central Asia which is unfair). Continental snowpack so avalanche danger can be an issue. The big thing is that it stays cold during winter so snow stays good and just general lack of people means no competition for fresh tracks.
Every year more and more are coming to central Asia, it's definitely growing. (Although the majority are coming on some overpriced group tour rather than more independently). I'd say lack of knowledge/advertising is an issue, a lot simply don't know what's here or assume it would be some kind of expedition style trip. Also many people see countries ending in "Stan" and assume lack of safety. It's hard for me to say as I'm generally meeting the people that do come so am hearing the positives they point out - better snow than Europe, lack of people, cheap etc. - rather than asking people why they wouldn't consider it.
Edit @abc I think you have a good point though, people going to Japan shows there is a market for paying more for quality. One of my reasons for going to n America was better quality of skiing (personally I much prefer the inbounds controlled off-piste set up and would pay a premium for it) but at the time Canada was cheaper than doing a season in Europe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It’s a bit like golf- my local club membership is £1500 for the year. The world class courses down the road on the Kent Coast are £3500+ - if you can even join. Day rates for both are much higher than the “season ticket” pro rata at £70 for my club, and £350 (  ) at the destination clubs.
You pays your money and takes your choices- quality of club/resort and then how often you can play being key factors.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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Actually, that’s not true. Quite many resorts in North America offer a version of such. You can turn in your pass for a refund within the first hour if you don’t like the condition! That’s about as good as any “dynamic pricing”.
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If a service is so bad they give you your money back that's called a refund not "dynamic pricing" Don't get me wrong it's definitely a good thing - but for the person that's travelled there for their week holiday probably still not great.
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It isn’t the “service” is bad. It’s just the condition isn’t to the customer’s liking. So, even if the snow is perfectly groomed, but if the wind is howling and you just didn’t pack enough warm clothing; or you’ve packed your carver and the snow was slushy, you can quit after a run or two and get a refund. No questions asked.
There’s been speculation that local powder hounds could have exploited that policy by only skiing the first hour on a powder day. But then everyone realize any locals will most likely have a season pass anyway and no need for that loophole.
In my trip to the Alps, there had been a few days I wish I could do just that. Total white out, firm snow on the few narrow runs that were full of people either stopping haphazardly or going in random direction. It’s not their fault they’re skiing so badly, they (or me) just couldn’t see the edge marker to know which way to go! Those were the kind of days to just put away the skis and head for the bar. And had there been no-question-asked refunds, at worst there would have been far fewer people on the slopes, more rooms for those who wish to continue to ski in such condition.
“Dynamic pricing” based on demand had been in existence for some years now. But condition based pricing, dynamic or otherwise, hasn’t been explicitly offered. Primarily due to the fact the operating cost remain the same in both good condition and bad (probably more costly in bad condition days).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| @abc I think you have a good point though, people going to Japan shows there is a market for paying more for quality. One of my reasons for going to n America was better quality of skiing (personally I much prefer the inbounds controlled off-piste set up and would pay a premium for it) but at the time Canada was cheaper than doing a season in Europe. |
I think most go to Japan not because it’s cheaper. They go for “quality”.
While the US/Canada can be done “cheaper” in certain circumstance, that’s more for return visitors who already glimpsed the quality benefit first and don’t mind paying extra if need be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Every year more and more are coming to central Asia, it's definitely growing. (Although the majority are coming on some overpriced group tour rather than more independently). I'd say lack of knowledge/advertising is an issue, a lot simply don't know what's here or assume it would be some kind of expedition style trip. |
A lot of the European/American skiers going to Japan are also going on group tours rather than independently too. Whether those group tours are “overpriced” or not I have no idea.
Many were indeed there on “some kind of expedition style” all-inclusive guided trips where they were driven to mountains with the best condition for the day. So it’s a different offering, instead of paying for a heli/cat package in Europe or Canada, they’re paying for guided resort (with significant offpiste component) skiing in Japan.
Most of the independent skiers I ran into are from Australia or Asia. Although this year in Niseko there were quite a few Americans doing it independently. Clearly the IKON effect.
For the group tour participants, they’re clearly paying extra for the “quality” in Japan! The only question is whether they can get the same quality in Central Asia over Japan for less. Or alternatively, whether they can get some level of “quality” for significantly less cost than Japan.
But for independent skiers, the lack of knowledge would probably be the biggest obstacle.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 7-02-26 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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We've done Japan a few times but never as a group tour. I wouldn't even know where to look for such a thing. However we have used travel agents to sort out flight, transfers, hotels etc.
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FAQ
