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POWDER RIBBONS

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POWDER RIBBONS

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Avalanche cords is not a substitute for a transceiver

true - but if you can see the cord, it could help to know where to start your transceiver search.

However - if both skis & the skiier had cords, you could potentially have 3 areas to start your detailed search from. Ho - hum. At least you may find all 3 and then be able to ski home..... Laughing
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
PJSki wrote:
... in nearly all types of 'powder' the ski will just stop when you become detached from it.


You mean the type of powder called 'concrete'?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PJSki wrote:
Merely work your way back up the line of your fall to where your track ends, seeping with your pole as you go.


In powder, your ski is more likely to be below you. The brake is pretty much useless unless it can find something to grip on.
You may have fallen over and come to a quick stop, the ski won't.
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PJSki wrote:
Merely work your way back up the line of your fall



Now that's funny. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
geoffers, the skis will must likely sink, taking the ribbons with them. This is because the moving avalanche behaves like a liquid, with heavy items sinking to the bottom. You'll have no interest in finding the skis anyway

The important thing is to pinpoint the victim ASAP. Cord might give you a clue, if it's still attached, but in all but the most shallow of burials, where other items will most likely be clear of the surface anyway, they will just add confusion and may cause injury to the victim themselves.

Say you trail a 5m line out behind you, you will end up digging at an angle to find the victim because you won't know where the other end of the line is to be able to dig straight down to it. Don't forget, the debris will have set very hard, so it is imperative to dig the shortest route.

Transceiver, probe, shovel.
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
PJSki wrote:
Merely work your way back up the line of your fall to where your track ends, seeping with your pole as you go.


In powder, your ski is more likely to be below you. The brake is pretty much useless unless it can find something to grip on.
You may have fallen over and come to a quick stop, the ski won't.


It will. It will stop before you do in 99.9% off powder falls.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 3-12-07 18:42; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
PJSki, I wasn't suggesting av-cords as an alternative to a transceiver and probes, but maybe they could aid the coarse search, (ie getting you to the area where you start hearing /seeing the bleeps on your transceiver) before commencing the fine search & probing. This could be particularly helpful if you're the only searcher, and need to cover a large area
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
PJSki wrote:
Powder cords are unnecessary. In nearly all cases and in nearly all types of 'powder' the ski will just stop when you become detached from it. Merely work your way back up the line of your fall to where your track ends, seeping with your pole as you go.


Of course, that presupposes you know where you have become detached from the ski. It is perfectly possible to ski through heavy snow and emerge on one ski. I have done it and seen others do it. Tracing your way back where you think you have skied can be a long and fruitless pursuit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
David Goldsmith wrote:
PJSki wrote:
... in nearly all types of 'powder' the ski will just stop when you become detached from it.


You mean the type of powder called 'concrete'?


Untracked snow comes in different densities. In its very lightest form, you could be in contact with the firm base. Fall, and your ski could have enough momentum to overcome the residence of the snow and not stop. If that happens, a ribbon won't help you.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Latchigo wrote:
PJSki wrote:
Powder cords are unnecessary. In nearly all cases and in nearly all types of 'powder' the ski will just stop when you become detached from it. Merely work your way back up the line of your fall to where your track ends, seeping with your pole as you go.


Of course, that presupposes you know where you have become detached from the ski. It is perfectly possible to ski through heavy snow and emerge on one ski. I have done it and seen others do it. Tracing your way back where you think you have skied can be a long and fruitless pursuit.


Yes that can happen. Set your dins correctly and it shouldn't. I've fallen over in powder plenty of times, still do occasionally, but have never needed ribbons to assist me in finding my ski when they come off.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 3-12-07 18:49; edited 1 time in total
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
PJSki, As one who has spent many " happy " hours (OK I exaqgerate for effect, 1 and a bit hours) looking for a ski lost during a spectacular wipe out from Mrs W when I was wearing the only pair of traces in the household, I can assure you we felt there was significant potential for marriage-saving capability should similar happen again.

Quite possibly we were the "people who don't know what they are doing" you so politely refer to above, but since we were the only one's there, we weren't really in a position to wait until an expert came along to teach us the subtleties of ski hunting over a wide area, on a steep slope, with a long fall. (PS is wasn't at the end of the tracks either)

We went straight out to buy a second set.
Of course, we've never deployed either set since.... let's hope for more powder this year eh?!

It's like carrying a brolley "just in case of rain.": it never rains until you go out without one.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
JimW, did the skis take some air? Were they on the surface when you found them? Ribbons don't really help with big spectacular falls and the shedding of skis in mid-flight.

Bottom line, if you know what you are doing, they are not required.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I think the fundamental difference between a powder ribbon and an avalanche cord is that it is not (usually) a matter of life & death if a powder ribbon unties or is severed when a ski is lost. Add that to the fact that a powder ribbon is automatically deployed when a ski is lost whereas to be effective either the skier must have the presence of mind to deploy the cord when avalanched OR must trail is behind them at all times.

Powder ribbons do look a bit gimpy & I'm sure real hardmen crank their DIN up to 16 instead and never fall but its always amusing seeing someone being virtually stampeded on a steep powder pitch while they dig around for their ski. wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
fatbob, must have been fox hat, looking below the last point of contact. wink
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PJSki, Mrs W certainly took air!, but the skis came off before launching her... although by the time we found the more difficult of the two, it was apparent that they and she had been travelling with different directional vectors at the time of separation... which may indeed have accounted for said separation.

Maybe traces wouldn't have helped, maybe they would: but certainly without them, they won't! I guess as the others here have said, you have to weigh up the inconvenience / faff of wearing them but not using, versus the risk / reward of them actually being useful in finding a ski. Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
PJSki, are you related to Whitegold? Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
JimW, did she carry on on one ski for a bit? That would best account for the separation. I promise you, without the mass of the skier to drive them through the snow, they will stop.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sproggski, I was actually thinking of a certain small computing systems architect Toofy Grin
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Sorry, comprex, not familiar enough with the personalities for that one. Is he/she an architect of small computing systems or just small?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
sproggski, ah, sorry, more of an Epic personality, pardon my obscure reference. I think it was statistics that did it.
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PJSki, Who knows? - it was a few years ago tbh, and she was behind me (although briefly appeared in my peripheral vision before landing on her back...). All I can really say is after geting her to her feet, somewhat shaken, we took a long, long time, to relocate the plank

Ah the joys snowHead
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Why not use a snowboard instead? safe in the knowledge that if you are buried headfirst in a treewell you definitely know where
your board is at all times wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
wrongsideof30, think i'll just buy the ribbons wink
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
comprex, yes, there was a certain similarity to PK. But I'm guessing that PJ doesn't ski Utah powder much.

PJ where are you skiing that your ski stops 99.99% of the time above you?
Based on your statistic, that would imply that you have lost a ski in powder at least 10,000 times, and only once in those 10,000 has it finished below you. Cheeky comment would be: you need to get off the green runs. More serious comment would be: you need to look at your equipment & technique if the ski is coming off that often!
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Powder ribbons are quite useful IMHO. Skis don't always stop instantly in powder in my experience, regardless of what PJ is saying.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Like PJSki, I find my ski is almost always above me. Reason being they tend to come off if they've hit something, most likely some kind of base shredding rock Sad

Personally, I would take a fatbob with me in preference to a ribbon. An uncanny ability to sniff out a ski, as demonstrated several times at La Grave last year. wink Mostly on the morning we all took out the BD test kit and found the techy had been a tad conservative with our requested DIN settings. rolling eyes
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My experience of skiing powder with other skiers has shown that in 99.999% of cases, lost skis have behaved like torpedoes. In fact, I have a theory that the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915 off the coast of Ireland was caused by a submerged ski which perfectly imitated a German U-boat's torpedo.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
brian,

ha ha...now you know why we ski behind you......Laughing wink

Incidently, which bindings did you have... I found I had to jack up the Freeride plus by 1 or 2 DIN.

I wonder if it is because it sits a bit higher on the ski and the forces magnify....

Always start the search above the face-plant, IMV and use your ski to cut 90 degrees across the slope
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Wear The Fox Hat, you (as in you personally) probably should tie ribbons on when you ski Utah powder. How long do you have them? I bet your instructor makes you wear them.

David Goldsmith, care to elaborate?

uktrailmonster wrote:
Powder ribbons are quite useful IMHO. Skis don't always stop instantly in powder in my experience, regardless of what PJ is saying.


Where did I say they always stop instantly?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PJSki wrote:

David Goldsmith, care to elaborate?

Only to the extent to reminding everyone of that old saying "Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak ski".

Historically it's the way people using wooden skis used to get them back.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
David Goldsmith, so how long a tracer would they have used in ye olde ski times? And were would a tweed clad skier of the 1930's go looking for his planks after a fall, up or down the hill?


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 4-12-07 17:08; edited 2 times in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
JT, vist something or other, just regular alpine bindings. I think I asked for 10 but actually had slightly less than 9. Once I cranked them up they were fine.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PJSki wrote:
Wear The Fox Hat, you (as in you personally) probably should tie ribbons on when you ski Utah powder. How long do you have them? I bet your instructor makes you wear them.


Thank you for your advice. No one makes me do anything, although your attitude makes me want to laugh.
As I'm sure you're well aware, tying powder straps on to your legs is not considered a good thing to do. If your ski comes off and stops quickly, but you slide on, your leg will get a nasty jerk. if the ski slides on, and you stop, then again, your leg will get jerked.
My legs don't like nasty jerks. Sounds like yours might be used to supporting one. snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Quote:

tying powder straps on to your legs is not considered a good thing to do.

Shocked best not do that then, but what if they fall out of your trouser leg Laughing
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Wear The Fox Hat, oh, we're talking about something entirely different now are you? This thread is about powder traces, not tethers.

Also, I should point out that I didn't give any stats for finding my own skis in powder after a fall. The 99.9% figure you quoted wasn't attributed by me to me. You should work on your reading comprehension.

But as you have 22k of posts, how could I be right and you be wrong?


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 4-12-07 17:39; edited 1 time in total
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Douglas Bader wrote:
Wear The Fox Hat,
Quote:

tying powder straps on to your legs is not considered a good thing to do.

Shocked best not do that then, but what if they fall out of your trouser leg Laughing


Are we talking about your legs, or the straps (which are supposed to fall out your trouser leg)
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have Flourescent Yellow Powder Ribbons for powder days & Off-Piste. Got them in Fernie B.C. Just tie them to the binding heelpiece and tuck the ribbon up the trouser snowcuff. Ski comes off, leaves ribbon trail behind. Dead easy to find ski. Bit of hastle when you first put the skis on tucking the ribbons away, but that's only once in the morning and again after lunch, unless I ride a cablecar. Very Happy
Powder leashes are bloody dangerous. I don't want a ski attached to my leg if I fall, flying around my head.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 4-12-07 17:42; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
PJSki wrote:
It will. It will stop before you do in 99.9% off powder falls.


Sorry PJSki, it appears I misquoted you. 99.9%, not 99.99%
But still, I was basing my response on a quote from you. You didn't attribute it to anyone else, so youa re claiming it as your own, surely you can manage that one?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
PJSki wrote:
Wear The Fox Hat, oh, we're talking about something entirely different now are you? This thread is about powder traces, not tethers.


I don't recall using the word "tether", I think I called them "straps", as they strap on to your skis. Traces or ribbons would have been better words to use.

PJSki wrote:
But as you have 22k of posts, how could I be right and you be wrong?


Easily.
I don't know everything, nor do I claim to. In fact, 99.9% of the time any stats I quote are entirely made up! Laughing
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Spyderman wrote:
I have Flourescent Yellow Powder Ribbons for powder days & Off-Piste. Got them in Fernie B.C. Just tie them to the binding heelpiece and tuck the ribbon up the trouser snowcuff. Ski comes off, leaves ribbon trail behind. Dead easy to find ski. Bit of hastle when you first put the skis on tucking the ribbons away, but that's only once in the morning and again after lunch, unless I ride a cablecar. Very Happy
Powder leashes are bloody dangerous. I don't want a ski attached to my leg if I fall, flying around my head.


That's what I thought this thread was about leashes are something different entirely
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