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Skiing with straight legs - with added video

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello peeps!
(Apologies if this has been covered as I've skim read the thread.)

I've seen 3 different skiers use the Ski Mojo. I think it is an excellent invention to re-release the skiing potential for people with knackered bits and bobs! I know for a fact it has enabled people to ski that wouldn't otherwise have had the confidence or strength. I am certainly not Mojo bashing wink

I have noticed from this vid (and my rusty memory) a very similar stance and style from mojo wearers. From the ankles up the body seems quite stiff; almost as if turns are started by 'tilting' the whole body (like moving a stick from left to right that is stuck in the ground). Once this tilt is sufficient then there is a bit of leg action.
Is it possible that the Mojo is taking too much flex/stress/whatever away form the knees onto the springs?
If so, then what one should expect from a Mojo'd up skier is different from one who can genuinely 'bend ze knees'.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Old Fartbag wrote:
I wasn't saying that he had per se.....I was just clarifying my understanding on boot flexion.
Yes, I appreciate that, apologies if my reply gave the impression I thought you didn't understand. I was just stating what I thought of FTS's ankle movement. I know he has recently got back in to cycling in quite a big way, so I don't think the issue is to do with a lack of movement at any of his leg joints. It's more an issue of the load on those joints because of the natural forces which are generated as we ski, which is an issue for all of us to manage not just those with knees and hips which aren't in good shape because of a lifetime of playing rugby. I think making sure those loads / forces are smoothly applied, that the body is well balanced and biomechanically well aligned will help a great deal. Also managing the speed so that the forces don't get too great will minimise pain. So ski smooth, ski well, pick your line and when the conditions are pants go have a beer.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
flangesax wrote:
I have noticed from this vid (and my rusty memory) a very similar stance and style from mojo wearers. From the ankles up the body seems quite stiff; almost as if turns are started by 'tilting' the whole body (like moving a stick from left to right that is stuck in the ground). Once this tilt is sufficient then there is a bit of leg action.
Is it possible that the Mojo is taking too much flex/stress/whatever away form the knees onto the springs?
If so, then what one should expect from a Mojo'd up skier is different from one who can genuinely 'bend ze knees'.
I have no experience of the mojo (other than hearing very positive reports from people who have used them), but that has always been the question I've had about their use. Do they inhibit the range or rate of motion you have at ankles knees and hips?
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I know I'm in a very small minority (often of one) but the fascination with facing the fall line (or perceived fall line, as in straight down the middle of the run) is contributing to inefficiencies in your skiing and more than likely transferring pain to your joints.

You have the technical ability and ski shape to pivot and edge your way through the turn to completion.

From the video clip you posted the discipline to keep your torso facing down the mountain through the turn combined with reduced flexibility (due to knee pain?) means you're not completing your turns.


http://youtube.com/v/GqaD0S7sxrM


This takes unnecessary momentum into the next turn and your solution is to get the skis sideways quickly to control the acceleration.

This comes at a cost - added force on the snow which is transmitted through your joints.

If you try keeping your torso square to your skis and not the fall line - imagine you're the spoke in a wheel - you'll find it easier, smoother and less taxing physically to ski through the turn to a point where you've decelerated enough to allow both skis to flatten and pivot into the new fall line without feeling the skis are getting away from you and you're accelerating too quickly.

This will give you more time to progressively and smoothly pivot and edge your way through the next turn.

The steeper the slope / the faster the snow surface the further past the mid-point of the turn you'll have to ski to decelerate enough so that it feels comfortable to you to commit both skis to the new fall line.

This progressive, softer skiing will hopefully reduce the pain in your joints or allow you to ski longer / more difficult terrain before the pain becomes too much.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 12-10-18 9:32; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I have absolutely nothing to add to this technical discussion but it's lovely to see you back on skis @Frosty the Snowman Happy
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@Frosty the Snowman, I have nothing but respect for people that either continue to do what they love, or indeed return to it, battling through some kind of adversity, pain, or whatever - so chapeau to you.
I don't have the ability or knowledge to comment with any authority ( hopefully our esteemed experts will help out by confirming or otherwise ), but one thing that occurred to me was don't over-estimate how much your pole plants can contribute to a more upright stance ? Perhaps don't reach forward so much for a deep plant, and go for a shallower plant by your side ie not so far along the front of your ski ??
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_sam_? wrote:
I have absolutely nothing to add to this technical discussion but it's lovely to see you back on skis @Frosty the Snowman Happy
Hear hear.

I'm also full of admiration for people who can express technical concepts so eloquently in words.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I do have limited flexion in the right ankle due to an old injury (aren't they all Laughing )

Can I just say that every post has had something valid and helpful. There is so much for me to take away here and I really can't thank you enough.

Having left the first hip too long before surgery I now have a good idea of where i am with the left knee and hip and am just playing a waiting game on them. I am exceptionally lucky in that the pain I get is nowhere near what is should be for the advancement of the arthritis. The brilliant man who did the hip said that he can have people with what appears to be fairly mild looking x rays that are in agony, and others that look horrendous and yet can live with it. It is nothing to do with "mtfu" but some are just lucky.
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
The brilliant man who did the hip said that he can have people with what appears to be fairly mild looking x rays that are in agony, and others that look horrendous and yet can live with it. It is nothing to do with "mtfu" but some are just lucky.


Mrs Rabbie who is a vet has noticed the same with horses. The X-ray does not predict the degree of lameness from joint problems. It does seem a bit strange to me but there you are
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@Frosty the Snowman, I'm thinking some time on snow with a recommended sympathetic instructor would help, there is only so much you can glean from these forums, and as you've seen you'll get conflicting advice.


From what Rob's said, some tweaks in technique combined with tweaks in picking when and where to turn could make a week away more enjoyable...
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Mike Pow wrote:

You have the technical ability and ski shape to pivot and edge your way through the turn to completion.

From the video clip you posted the discipline to keep your torso facing down the mountain through the turn combined with reduced flexibility (due to knee pain?) means you're not completing your turns.

This takes unnecessary momentum into the next turn and your solution is to get the skis sideways quickly to control the acceleration.

This comes at a cost - added force on the snow which is transmitted through your joints.

If you try keeping your torso square to your skis and not the fall line - imagine you're the spoke in a wheel - you'll find it easier, smoother and less taxing physically to ski through the turn to a point where you've decelerated enough to allow both skis to flatten and pivot into the new fall line without feeling the skis are getting away from you and you're accelerating too quickly.

This will give you more time to progressively and smoothly pivot and edge your way through the next turn.

The steeper the slope / the faster the snow surface the further past the mid-point of the turn you'll have to ski to decelerate enough so that it feels comfortable to you to commit both skis to the new fall line.

This progressive, softer skiing will hopefully reduce the pain in your joints or allow you to ski longer / more difficult terrain before the pain becomes too much.

This is exactly what I see (along with potential negative effects)....just explained more eloquently.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 12-10-18 22:07; edited 1 time in total
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Frosty the Snowman,

Not going to try to add to what better qualified people have told you (which sounded right to me) but just to reinforce a couple of points:
1. your posture looks pretty good to me - think that is part of what Rob said about there being no quick fixes
2. I wonder if more hip angulated carves would cut down the wear and tear. I'm not someone who argues carving good / pivoting bad - good skiing is about a constantly changing blend of the two. I just think that pivoted turns introduce more vibration and chop than smooth powerful (i.e., hip rather than knee angulated) carves. I realise your hips don't give you a free pass but moving the blend in that direction might take some work off the knees?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
As a board rider I have nothing to add on the technique side of things but so far no one seems to have mentioned using easier turning skis. Wouldn't softer skis with a tighter sidecut radius make it a lot easier to carve tighter turns and keep speed down without having to work the knees too hard?
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
flangesax wrote:
I have noticed from this vid (and my rusty memory) a very similar stance and style from mojo wearers. From the ankles up the body seems quite stiff; almost as if turns are started by 'tilting' the whole body (like moving a stick from left to right that is stuck in the ground). Once this tilt is sufficient then there is a bit of leg action.
Is it possible that the Mojo is taking too much flex/stress/whatever away form the knees onto the springs?
If so, then what one should expect from a Mojo'd up skier is different from one who can genuinely 'bend ze knees'.


As far as I can work out the Mojo is a personal suspension system which takes the stress away from the wearer's legs with springs.
The upsides of the Mojo look to be great i.e. allowing old/injured people to ski again.
Maybe the downsides are small bump performance and the ability to absorb bumps the same way as a non-mojoed skier.

As with performance mountain bikes the shocks have to be setup/tuned to match the riders weight. Perhaps FTS's biking in the summer has dropped his weight and the springs need to be adjusted accordingly.
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DB wrote:

As far as I can work out the Mojo is a personal suspension system which takes the stress away from the wearer's legs with springs.
The upsides of the Mojo look to be great i.e. allowing old/injured people to ski again.
Maybe the downsides are small bump performance and the ability to absorb bumps the same way as a non-mojoed skier.

As with performance mountain bikes the shocks have to be setup/tuned to match the riders weight. Perhaps FTS's biking in the summer has dropped his weight and the springs need to be adjusted accordingly.


Nah it's hard to describe but the Mojo doesn't interfere with regular skiing movements at all. It compresses with flexion of the knees then release with extension to effectively provide a turbo boost to the extension. While I can imagine a lightwieght person might be restricted in their ability to compress stronger springs I really can't imagine someoen of FtS's size no matter how much weight he has lost having that problem (assuming he hasn't drilled out his bones etc for extra weight saving) .
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Nah it's hard to describe but the Mojo doesn't interfere with regular skiing movements at all. It compresses with flexion of the knees then release with extension to effectively provide a turbo boost to the extension. While I can imagine a lightwieght person might be restricted in their ability to compress stronger springs I really can't imagine someoen of FtS's size no matter how much weight he has lost having that problem (assuming he hasn't drilled out his bones etc for extra weight saving) .


When setting up a mountainbike shock you need the right amount of sag e.g. the body weight starts to compress the spring for say 25% of the travel. If you put a significantly lighter person (e.g. 10kg+ lighter) on the same bike there's no or very lttle sag. This then means that the suspension doesn't work well i.e. too hard, performance delay, no extension travel, no small bump performance.

If a skier needs to retract his leg(s) while wearing a mojo is it more, less or the same effort as a non-mojoed Skier?

I'm wondering if the mojo or the pain FTS experiences is making him less sensitive to the small contours in the snow and this is hammering his knees further.
I suspect some micro-bump training with an instructor might help to improve poorer snow technique. Where the piste conditions are mixed then using the softer snow to turn with both legs rather than turning on the hard icy snow inbetween the mounds on mostly one ski might save his knees.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@DB,

You can adjust the springs on MoJos for exactly that reason.

My wife says that one of the things that mojos do is take some of the chatter out - helps with those small contours
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
1. Lose weight. Lots.
2. Do yoga. Every day. Forever.
3. Get a gait analysis.
4. Lose weight.

Fat people always struggle with bad joints.

Good luck, dood.
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@Whitegold, fat people with bad joints are very aware of this, unless they are in a coma.
Gait analysis results change every time one has joint replacement and I cant afford that.
Pilates has been good, yoga would be better.
Thank you
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Whitegold, I'll see you next Tuesday at the Troll fest again; won't I?
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@Frosty the Snowman,
Have a friend who also has arthritis joint problems but you ski better.

Im not the best Skier in the world but as an avid ski tourer in Eastern Austria have to ski all sorts of sheisse with effiency.
Would like to ski with you some day and see if I can help. Pls drop me a PM. Im approx 3 hrs drive from Salzburg.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 13-10-18 21:07; edited 2 times in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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@Whitegold,
Drop me a PM lets see if your skiing is as cutting edge as your comments on the internet.

Stanton you in too?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
.....Gait analysis results change every time one has joint replacement and I cant afford that......

Definately worth the cost and in the grand scheme of things it's cheap.
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+ 1 on gait analysis. It is cheaper than the alternatives over the long run. Ron McCulloch in Lewisham is good if you have the ability to travel.
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so, after my knee injury i started inline skating. it builds all the muscles etc without the impact (of running) or the locked in restrictiveness (of cycling), gets you outdoors from the gym ... and is the closest thing to skiing ..... focusses (?) your centre.
note re the leg angle aspect. (albeit dynamic forces would be proportionately higher)

http://youtube.com/v/DTgq160Q3Xc
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@limegreen1, the simple vibrations would be a killer,
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Frosty the Snowman,
Is the knee pain always there when you exercise? Does it prevent you from training and making your legs stronger or does the pain only emerge after a certain time? Is the pain blocking out your feel for the snow or are you normally without pain but "skiing on eggshells" for fear of pain/injury? After my knee injury (cracked shin bone and tendon damage) I used a BOSU and balance board to stabilise the knee which gave me courage to put weight on it again. Just lightly working all the muscles around the knee gave it so much more stability.

If training is restricted maybe EMS would help to strengthen the knee muscles, it's not something I've used and don't know if it's effective esp. for knee muscles - maybe others here can help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_muscle_stimulation
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
spyderjon wrote:
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
.....Gait analysis results change every time one has joint replacement and I cant afford that......

Definately worth the cost and in the grand scheme of things it's cheap.


Curious as to how gait analysis can help with skiing, can you elaborate ?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
wouldn't gait affect how weight transfers itself to the skis - particularly laterally but also fore and aft? My bandy husband had problems keeping skis flat.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
@Frosty the Snowman,
Is the knee pain always there when you exercise? Does it prevent you from training and making your legs stronger or does the pain only emerge after a certain time? Is the pain blocking out your feel for the snow or are you normally without pain but "skiing on eggshells" for fear of pain/injury? After my knee injury (cracked shin bone and tendon damage) I used a BOSU and balance board to stabilise the knee which gave me courage to put weight on it again. Just lightly working all the muscles around the knee gave it so much more stability.

If training is restricted maybe EMS would help to strengthen the knee muscles, it's not something I've used and don't know if it's effective esp. for knee muscles - maybe others here can help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_muscle_stimulation


Like anyone with advanced osteoarthritis of the knee, the knee "ache" is fairly constant and gets worse after exercise. I did a lot of static body weight squats prior to skiing (90 degree only) and they were very painful to start with, but slightly less painful as my strength grew. One has to be very careful as to what exercises one does. My physio said to avoid any weight training and be sensible with regards to swelling etc

As the pain grows during the day when skiing, the power available reduces. I can ski corduroy smooth pistes all day, but any chattering, unexpected bumps, big slush bumps and the like cause much sharp pain and the destroys my skiing. Icy corduroy e.g. is absolutely horrendous as those little shocks go straight to the bony spur on bony spur. Ski should remain flat on the floor as in impact is knacksville. I know other with the same ailment and they all describe it the same.

Ironically, on our last run of the holiday, form the top at Wagrain to mid station, flat at the top, but steeper lower down, it was very soft and lumpy, but I knew it was the last run and I decided to just ski it as aggressively as i could. Totally smashed it, in super control and felt fabulous. 10 minutes later I could barely walk.
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@Frosty the Snowman, that last bit towards the Graffenberg Express is a tricky little customer! Always very bumpy and normally quite busy too makes for a bit of a fun time!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@flangesax, yeh, I went to the right of the clump of trees and it is quieter and easier to pick a decent line. Great slope though.
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